1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Businessweek: Ford Shows Why (Ford) Hybrids Aren't Nearly as Efficient as We Think

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by cwerdna, Jun 14, 2014.

  1. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2005
    12,544
    2,122
    1
    Location:
    SF Bay Area, CA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Don't like the original title.
    Ford Shows Why Hybrids Aren't Nearly as Efficient as We Think - Businessweek

    Obviously, the author isn't pro-hybrid and spews a lot of nonsense like these "gems":

    :rolleyes:
     
  2. KennyGS

    KennyGS Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2014
    1,243
    1,044
    1
    Location:
    Keystone State
    Vehicle:
    2014 Prius
    Model:
    Five
    Regardless, I wonder what else he'd recommend for me, instead of my Prius, that will consistently get me over 50 mpg?
     
  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,068
    15,372
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Yes, it was a math error:
    source: Ford Motor Company Lowers Fuel Economy Ratings For Six Vehicles | Ford Media Center

    This is exactly in the area between the coast-down and dynamometer that we've already seen in other cars. Their concern about the driving protocol is less accurate than the real problem of the split between the two sets of coefficients, roll-down and dynamometer. The reason is modern, rush hour traffic is even slower than the "1950s Country Club" trip.

    Bob Wilson
     
  4. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2013
    1,218
    4
    0
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius
    Model:
    One
    Not necessarily a wrong statement. The tiny 1.0 engine in my insight has to spin over 3000 rpm to keep-up with 80 mph traffic. (The same would probably be true of my 1.3 civic, or a 1.5 prius C, if I drove them that fast.)
     
  5. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2010
    2,168
    764
    0
    Location:
    Portugal
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Hybrids are particularly handicapped on highways, where high speeds require their gas engines to kick in and, proportionally, do more work than standard vehicles.
    It is a wrong statement, since there is no "more work than standard vehicles" in a hybrid. You have subscribed that, regarding standard 1.3 Civics.
    As an example, 3Gen Prius at full speed (our German fellas can confirm), 105-110MPH consumes about 23MPG.
     
  6. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2006
    11,309
    3,586
    1
    Location:
    Northern VA (NoVA)
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Geez the Bloomberg article is scary bad science assessment of hybrid MPG. He is quoting CR who apparently knows nothing about testing hybrid MPG either.

    The thing I am wondering if some of the FORD hybrids do better than Prius during the first 5 minute warm up period? What I am thinking there is all Prius are CA-certified, but FORD seems to have different systems for CARB and non-CARB states. Perhaps the non-CARB versions have more freedom to max MPG. I do not know.
     
    #6 wjtracy, Jun 26, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2014
  7. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    12,747
    5,243
    57
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Using the problem from Ford as anti-hybrid fodder is no surprise. It will likely linger on for quite awhile too, despite no substance with respect to Prius. Heck, having credibility hasn't even mattered in the past. I don't see how this will be any different.

    Fortunately, the improved internet resources nowadays does at least help us deal with the rhetoric. The nonsense will never end though. Some will fight change to the bitter end.
     
  8. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    2,382
    1,304
    0
    Location:
    California, USA
    Vehicle:
    2011 Chevy Volt
    "Never ascribe to malice that which can adequately be explained by incompetence." -- ancient French proverb
     
    usbseawolf2000 likes this.
  9. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2013
    1,218
    4
    0
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius
    Model:
    One
    The non-hybrids also had their MPG reduced, so Ford's poor testing procedures effected regular gasoline cars too.
    Yeah the smaller engines eat less fuel, but how fast is the engine spinning? In my 1.0 hybrid it has to spin almost 4000 rpm to reach that speed. (The 1.5 engine in a Prius C or G2 car is also spinning very high at 105-110..... I'd estimate over 3000 rpm.) In contrast a 3.5 engine would only spin about 1800. The hybrid engines have to work harder to keep up.

    BTW the reason I'm defending the article is because I don't start with the assumption, "This author must be an idiot," just because he doesn't like hybrids. Everyone is entitled to hold a differing opinion, and yet still be just as intelligent as us.
     
  10. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2010
    2,168
    764
    0
    Location:
    Portugal
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    I can't agree. Being hybrid does not mean a tiny engine, nor means more load or losses.
     
  11. 2k1Toaster

    2k1Toaster Brand New Prius Batteries

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2010
    6,035
    3,854
    0
    Location:
    Rocky Mountains
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    The GS450h has a 3.5L V6. How does this have to work harder? It has to work less hard to keep a speed vs a 3.5 in a non-hybrid since there is an infinite number of gears on the GS450h.
     
  12. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    12,747
    5,243
    57
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    There is no sensible reason for him to bring up performance at speeds that fast, well in excess of what any of us would ever drive.
     
  13. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2013
    1,218
    4
    0
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius
    Model:
    One
    If you look back, I originally said "80 miles/hour" which is a reasonable speed on the interstate. The smaller an engine is, the faster it has to spin to maintain that. My Prius doesn't have an rpm gauge but I wouldn't be surprised to see it nearing 3000 rpm. The Lexus 3.5L hybrid probably lopes-along at 1600
     
  14. 2k1Toaster

    2k1Toaster Brand New Prius Batteries

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2010
    6,035
    3,854
    0
    Location:
    Rocky Mountains
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    You said:

    So I pointed out a 3.5L hybrid. "Hybrid engines" is meaningless and the point. The article is misguided and the authour misinformed at best.

    And again, the displacement of an engine means very little with how fast it has to spin to drive a certain speed. We have these magic boxes called transmissions now that allow us to have different gears so that if we need low power at high speeds we can do that... Then there is the hybrid synergy drive with 2 electric motors that creates an infinite number of gears.

    So lets take the 80mph example:

    The Prius can spin MG1 backwards at -6500RPM, MG2 at around 4713 driving the wheels and the engine at just under 1600 rpm. So a 3.5L might "lope around" at 1600rpm, BUT THE PRIUS DOES THE EXACT SAME THING WITH SMALLER DISPLACEMENT. It is not a hard concept to grasp. The Prius does not follow convention so these guesstimations based off of how things worked in the 1960's doesn't apply.

    [​IMG]

    Likewise you can get the Prius engine to spin at 2500rpm, 3500, or 4500rpm and achieve the same speed along with any RPMs inbetween to meet the exact power demand.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    And if we look at top speed, you can do that at any RPM speed between 2900rpm and 4500rpm. Not just 1 fixed point like a standard transmission in a standard non-hybrid car.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    SageBrush and Tracksyde like this.
  15. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2013
    1,218
    4
    0
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius
    Model:
    One
    Incorrect. :D Engine power & the speed it spins the crankshaft is directly related. There's no way my tiny 1.0 hybrid engine (with CVT) could run a mere 1600 rpm to move 80 miles/hour, because the 1.0 engine doesn't produce enough power. (But the 3.5 Lexus engine probably does.) :)
    I doubt the Prius engine produces enough power @ 2500 to overcome the air resistance of 80 mile/hour travel. If the resistance is ~25 horsepower and the engine is only generating 20, the car will slow down.
     
  16. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    13,527
    4,057
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    Part of the article seemed right, and part just wrong. The ability to fudge math from similar cars and simply extrapolate 2 cycle to 5 cycle favors non aerodyamic and slow cars.
    At highway speeds the hybrids lose their advantage of being able to shut off ;-) The original insight and gen II and gen III prius lift-back counter this with great aerodynamics. The gen III prius added a more powerfull engine that revs lower and is more efficient at highway speeds just as telmo stated. I found a big drop of in efficiency over 75 mph, but really what other cars other than the tesla S is that aerodynamic. The prius c and c-max don't have the same aerodyamics. I have a friend who got a prius c about 6 months ago. She gets much better mpg in the city than me, but when we drove out on a camping trip, I got 53 mpg she got 46 (driving between 45 and 75 mph roads with not many stops).

    +1
     
  17. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    12,747
    5,243
    57
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Wrong about that, just like the 3000 guess. I had a span of highway available for a cruise at 80 on the way home today. The tach read just a little over 2400. It's really frustrating when posts without data continue to be made. Get a gauge or stop posting assumptions.


    Lumping all hybrids into a single category certainly isn't constructive and shutting off with respect to fuel efficiency is not consuming any fuel. So you know generalizing and being vague isn't helpful. After all, isn't the topic about Ford hybrids specifically... which are quite different from Toyota.
     
  18. walter Lee

    walter Lee Hypermiling Padawan

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2009
    1,126
    376
    5
    Location:
    Maryland
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    Ford wants its customer not to feel too bad about the lowering of the MPG ratings for Ford hybrids (e.g. C-Max, FHF) -- So they want to redefine the owner's expectations ... those EPA stickers are optimistic I tell ya - see the average Prius and Prius c driver does not get the EPA rating - yeah that's the ticket! yeah! :)

    In the summertime, the Washington DC Area is home of very expensive, beautiful, tremendously powerful luxury vehicles which are stuck in traffic on a road full of pot holes and steel plate patches.... sprinting for 12 feet at 20 mph and then coming to a dead stop and then idling away to keep the air conditioners on for the next 5 minutes...
     
    #18 walter Lee, Jun 27, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2014
  19. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    13,527
    4,057
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    John, you need to read more than one sentence. That leads to taking it out of context. try reading at least two more and tell me I lumped them all together.
    I called out a couple too ;-) Specifically the c-max and prius c. See no vague generalizations unless you read only one line.
     
  20. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    12,747
    5,243
    57
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Choosing to point out my difference comment rather than acknowledgement of the "shut off" point is interesting. But aerodynamics have nothing to do with whether or not the design cuts fuel at high speeds.

    And let's not forget how dynamic the system in Prius is. Notice how frequently the electricity flow changes while cruising along on the highway?

    There's also the need to recognize the difference in the power-carrier arrangement and two-speed design as well. Gen-III changed more than just the engine.