Buyers in Wisconsin - buy in Illinois!

I've posted some of this under the order tracking forum for our recent Prius purchase but felt that it would be useful to post here as well. Basically, I am recommending that anyone in Madison look beyond the two Madison dealers for reasons I will note below.

Here is the short version of the story. In mid-May, we decided to get a Prius, and went to Smart Motors as it's closest to our house. Took a test drive, and afterwards found out that it's a 6 to 9 month wait there. Went home, called dealer on the other side of the city (Jon Lancaster), and asked about inventory. Nothing was in stock but they had an unallocated magnetic gray. It was not our first choice in color or package but we wanted to get a car and hadn't even thought about calling out of our city. The salesman said unequivocally that "if it doesn't work out we'll refund your deposit because we'll have no problem selling the car to somebody else." Three days later, we decided that we both wanted a Prius, and after calling around, I reserved a second one at Elgin Toyota (IL).

Fast forward to last week, when I found out that my sales guy in Elgin was no longer with the dealer and the car would be in late July instead of mid-June. I sent off some internet inquiries hoping to find one replacement, and ended up finding one Prius each at Fox Lake (IL) and Elmhurst (IL) to pick up with in the
last week. Got one of them Saturday and the other yesterday.

One of the first things I asked my salesman when I put the deposit down at Fox Lake was about my refund of the deposit at Elgin, and he said that under Illinois law, the dealer would have to refund the deposit if delivery was not taken. I figure he knows better than I do about Illinois law, so I trusted that.

Last night, I called Elgin Toyota and told them I wanted to cancel the order and get the deposit back. First question - was it a check or credit card? I said credit card, they asked for the number, and said the credit would be put through immediately. AFTER they had given me the refund, they asked me if I would mind
telling them why, for their records, and where I had gotten my car. I was under no obligation to give this info and I already had my money coming back. All in all, class outfit, and no chastizing either in words or in tone.

Today, I got the call from the salesman at Jon Lancaster, which wasn't open last night for me to call and cancel. I told him that we were going to cancel, and asked about the deposit. In stark contrast to what he told us when we handed him the money, he said the deposit is non-refundable. I reminded him of what he
said when he took the deposit, and he said, "here, we consider contracts to be binding." And he was going to have his manager call me for "further action" I think, among some other inaudible muttering. No good-bye at the end of the phone conversation either, just a hangup. I have no doubt that someone who has been on the list in Madison is going to be very happy to get a car.

I am no fan of the state of Illinois for all of the stereotypical snooty, or should I say smug, Wisconsin resident reasons. Just look at my avatar. So why do I advise that you go south of the border? Four reasons:

(1) Sales tax - no, you don't pay the higher Illinois sales tax. You pay tax to Wisconsin, at the same rate as if you'd bought from a dealer in your county.

(2) Deposits - taking the word from my salesman in Illinois and how Elgin handled my refund request, it doesn't look like the dealer can keep your deposit if you change your mind or find something better. IANAL, and YMMV.

(3) Document fees - capped by state law at $57.33 there.

(4) Title and registration - some dealers in Illinois can handle the Wisconsin registration and tax for you. Fox Lake is about 15 minutes from the state line and was equipped. If not, you just download form MV1 from the DOT website, fill it out yourself (took me 5 minutes), write a check, and mail it in (if you are
transferring plates). For the cost of a stamp, you avoid any electronic processing fees that your dealer is going to add (at least $20).

So, Lancaster will apparently keep my $500. Needless to say, my service $$ and future business will not be going there, and I have learned a valuable lesson for a relatively small cost. Hopefully my experience will help any other potential customers decide about whether to do business with them. Jon Lancaster Toyota - avoid Avoid AVOID!

My personal experience is with Curt H. at Fox Lake Toyota and Rob S. at Elmhurst Toyota. Each treated me well and I would highly recommend either of them.

 

Yes, I would do this, if I had used a credit card. Silly me, I took
the salesman at his word while I wrote out my check (in person). It's
been cashed for about a month now. (groan)

In the future I will use a credit card, and get a receipt stating that
it's refundable. Another lesson learned.

 

Point taken - and cute cat by the way. I might switch my avatar from Bucky Badger to my cat sometime - we'll see. Maybe I can get Bucky to hold my cat in the Prius.

Anyway, here's what I've got so far (any formatting issues or unusual spaces in the middle of words are the fault of my browser and word wrapping not copying cleanly):

---------

Dear (owner of dealership - I have to find this out still):

I am writing to you to express my concerns about our interaction with your dealership between May 20, 2006 and the present. During this time, we were seeking to purchase a new 2006 Toyota Prius.

Before contacting your dealership, we had visited Smart Motors (as it is closer to our home) to take a test drive of a Prius. After doing so, we were sold, but we were told that the Prius is in high demand with a six to nine month wait. We returned home and called around to dealers in Janesville, Monroe, and the western suburbs of Milwaukee, in addition to speaking with Jeff <<last name removed>> at your dealership. We found that Jeff was able to offer us a Prius that was unallocated from your June delivery. Although it was not our first choice in color, under pressure that the vehicle couldn't even be guaranteed to be held without a deposit for the short the time it took us to drive across town, we visited your dealership promptly. Jon Lancaster Toyota required a $500 deposit, which we were told by Jeff would hold our vehicle. It was at that time that he said the following: because he would have no problem selling the car to someone else if we didn't want it, my deposit would be refunded if things did not work out.

A few days later, after researching the Prius in greater depth, we decided to replace both of our cars by purchasing two new Priuses. Now in the market for a second Prius, we expanded our search radius to include the Milwaukee, Green Bay, and La Crosse areas, as well as several dealerships in northern Illinois. In doing so, we identified several possibilities to which we provided our contact information in case a vehicle became available. This paid off, because within three days of each other, Fox Lake Toyota sold us a blue #5 Prius (6/10/06), and Elmhurst Toyota sold us a blue #7 Prius (6/13/06).

Your dealership was not open late enough on the evening of Tuesday, June 13 for me to call in and talk to Jeff, and I was planning to call him the following day. Jeff actually called me first on Wednesday, June 14, and I told him that we had purchased the other vehicle and wished to cancel our order with Jon Lancaster and have our deposit returned. He immediately told us that my deposit was non-refundable, and upon reminder of his statement at the time of order, said that Jon Lancaster considers contracts to be binding. He then said something about sales managers calling to follow up with me (which I took to be a veiled threat) and hung up the telephone.

Please understand that at the time of placing my deposit, it was my intention to purchase the vehicle from you, but my understanding from Jeff's prior statements that my deposit would be refundable if something did not work out. And, at the time of making the purchase from each of the Illinois dealers, it then became my intention to bring each of our vehicles to Jon Lancaster for all of the service appointments (and the Illinois dealers understood this). As things stand today, however, you can rest assured that never will any vehicle I own ever be touched in your service bays, and that to my friends and in the online communities in which I participate (including the two most popular websites for Prius enthusiasts) I cannot recommend your dealership.

The purpose of this letter is to encourage you to reconsider your decision not to refund my deposit. It is apparent to me that the following are true:

(1) In our pre-sale interactions with Jeff, from the initial telephone call to placing my deposit, he exerted a substantial amount of pressure to have us make a deposit, including assuring us that it would be refundable. Jeff is certainly an effective salesman in this regard, but this is not something that I was not comfortable with in retrospect.

(2) To encourage someone to sign a document while telling them that it says (or that, in practice, it means) something other than what it apparently does, is at the minimum unethical.

(3) I believe at least the following part of Jeff's statement to be true: when the car does arrive, I doubt that you will have no problem selling it -- probably to someone who is already waiting for one and who can take delivery as fast as we would have been able to. I see no reason for you to hold my deposit when the vehicle will be so easily and quickly sold.

Refunding my deposit will go a long way toward rebuilding this broken trust. Such an action on your part would certainly result in me being able to give a much more positive review to your dealership when people admiring the new Prius start thinking of getting one of their own. In addition, you would likely gain our immediate business for providing service on the vehicles we now own, and to consider ordering new vehicles from you in the future (for example when the next generation of Prius becomes available).

I thank you for your time, and hope that your considered reply will include a refund of my deposit.

With best regards,

<<my real name>>

 

I've still got to see exactly what the laws in Wisconsin are regarding
deposits. This will determine which of the following categories this
letter must fall into:

1. Wisconsin law says deposits are always refundable. When do I pick
up my check? (If I was in Illinois, this would be true.)

2. What I signed didn't say non-refundable. Therefore give me my money
back.

3. I signed something that said non-refundable, but only because the
salesman said it really didn't mean that. I consider this to be
unethical and will not give you my business and will tell everyone I
know not to either. But would you please, pretty please give me my
money back even though you don't technically have to?

If there's a "4" that I'm missing let me know. I appreciate your
honest and constructive feedback. IANAL, this life or past.

I've got to check on #2 or #3 when I get home tonight and see exactly
what it was.

How about to answer my own question.

4. See #3, but I'm going to stand out here on this public sidewalk with
a sign that says "TALK TO ME BEFORE YOU BUY HERE" until you refund my
deposit.

 

The contract said nothing about the deposit being refundable. Unfortunately, it does say that the dealer may, at its option, impose a penalty of up to 5% of the final cash price if we refuse delivery of the vehicle. (State law allows this in Wisconsin... I looked up the statute cited on the dealer's contract.) And, of course, that any oral representations by the salesperson are non-binding unless written onto the contract.

I have not heard back from them after my initial contact with the sales guy and am wondering if it's better to leave well enough alone at this point, since 5% of the cost of a new Prius is greater than $500. But in any case, I learned my lesson, which is succinctly stated as the title of this thread.

I'll post back if there are any updates, but for now, it looks like we paid a premium of $500 to get the color and package we wanted. If they do end up charging me 5% of the purchase price, you can bet I'll be sharing my story with anybody and everybody who will listen... and that I'll be buying all future cars in Illinois.

 

Hey onerpm, do you mind if i PM you a revised copy of the demand
letter I'm going to send? I don't want to waste space here on the
forum with this, but I'd really appreciate any insight you'd be willing
to provide.

The more I think about this, the more I am resolved to fight.

And, we cheeseheads deep down like you Minnesotans too... all but a few
select days of the year.

 

Thanks Rob, I'll send later tonight. Of course you will hopefully
understand that I'll need to block out the personal info, but I'll try
to get everything to scan so it's legible. I very much appreciate your
willingness to go out of your way to take a look at this stuff for me.
If you're ever in Madison I'll buy you a beer (or the beverage of your
choice).

By the way, Jon Lancaster Toyota currently has an "unsatisfactory
record" according to the Better Business Bureau of Wisconsin. There
are complaints in various areas, including one about "sales practices"
for which the definition includes "verbal representations not consistent
with written contractual terms or agreements." Hmmm...

 

Got a reply back from onerpm after he looked over our contract, and he
found a couple things that could be used in our favor - one technicality
that could indicate that the contract was never finalized, and some
other issues that would likely help us in small claims court should it
come to that. These thoughts were greatly appreciated.

If anyone recently bought a Prius with Jon Lancaster and has happened
upon this thread -- even if you ultimately took the car and did not
have to request a refund or cancel the deposit -- I'd like to get in
touch with you. Please feel free to PM me.

In the meantime, I'm going to send them a letter and demand the refund
of my deposit. If that doesn't work, I will be taking them to small
claims court.

 

Update: I just spoke to my salesman at Jon Lancaster again, and he asked
me what they want to do with the deposit check - send it back, tear it
up, etc. I confirmed with him that this ends any matters on all sides
amicably, and look forward to receiving my uncashed check in the mail.

I will post back a confirmation that I receive the check, when I do.
Assuming that everything works out as I now believe that it will, Jon
Lancaster would have honored the original agreement, and I will be
happy to leave it at that.

Sincere thanks for all who have taken the time to reply to me here.
I hope that all's well that ends well. And onerpm, the offer for the
beer's still good if you ever make it down to madtown.

 

I honestly have no idea why there was a change of heart. My only
contact with them between the order cancellation and now was a voicemail
for the sales manager, which was unreturned. I do not know if they
sold the car. Maybe somebody there reads Priuschat. Who knows.

Yeah, the uncashed check. Honestly, my mind was too busy grinding out
the legal scenarios that I hadn't even bothered to think of something
so simple. And, too bad I didn't bother going to my bank's website
until now. My check was cashed on June 15. Oops! I just called the
salesman back and he said they'd send me a refund check instead of
returning my voided one (no argument). Effectively the same outcome.

I realize that not everyone will be as fortunate as I, and that in
Wisconsin in particular, the sales contracts and laws they are based on
do seem skewed toward the dealer rather than the consumer. In doing my
research, I found several interesting cases, including this one:

Students help solve SUV dispute

in which a brain-injured woman was pressured into signing a buyer's
contract and told that she could return it, and when she did, wouldn't
take it back. (Note: the story does not indicate which dealer this
was, because ultimately they settled immediately before the broadcast
was to air. I'm certain it wasn't Jon Lancaster Toyota because the
vehicle involved was a Mercury.)

Anytime that Illinois does something better than Wisconsin is a big
deal, and I might contact my state legislators about it at some point.
But for now, read what you're signing while tuning out whoever is
telling you what it is you're signing as you read it, get anything in
writing that's told to you, and beware that you can't easily cancel.
And until Wisconsin makes its laws friendlier, you might just be
better off going down to Illinois.