Can a person choose to believe in god?

Well, I won't touch the last bit but I'll make the comment that for there to be free will there must be ignorance. Most people who believe in a god tend to think of that god as omniscient. However, that forces the universe into a deterministic corner. Calvin likes that corner, but there's certainly no freewill to be found there. People who find such a universe rather pointless, but still believe in a god prefer the omnipresent god. Freewill is maintained and that, at least, makes for a much more interesting universe.

If I were a theist, I'd have to favor the latter. I don't understand the point of the former. The god would have to be bored out of its skull and if there's really no point to any of the suffering (since the players are essentially automatons who will only ever see what was predetermined) then I'd have to think that the omniscient god to be a real bugger.

 

It would seem entirely possible for a person NOT to believe in God(s). Maybe that's what has the missionaries so concerned.

 

I would choose to look at the words of Jesus instead of Paul, James, etc. Jesus was quoted as saying that even if you have the faith the size of a mustard seed, you could move a mountain. I don't think he said that for people to take it literally, but rather as a reference to the power of even the smallest amount of faith. It's my understanding of the New Testament that we all posses in us the faith required for salvation.

However, the argument of free will versus Predestination can hardly be argued well by beings governed by space and time. Imagine if you could somehow communicate with a bacteria using the English language. How would you describe to the bacteria the nature of it's existence and that of human existence in terms that it would understand? Hopefully, as we gain a better grasp the physical nature of the universe, we will also gain a more realistic view of the nature of God himself. Besides, if we understood everything, life would be boring indeed.

As for missionaries, you might look inward and think about why you wanted to ask the question. Just being a casual observer reading your post, I might assume you have some repressed bitterness that's being misdirected. And, just for the sake of clarity, let's differentiate between a modern missionary that wants to travel abroad to help people physically just as much as spiritually from some of history's mission efforts that were motived more by power, greed, conquest, politics, and culture.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jan 26 2007, 08:16 PM) [snapback]381467[/snapback]</div>

But let me address your point directly. Perhaps they believe that a part of their destiny (if you will) is to be the link to others that are chosen. It is possible to imagine that without their willful choice to bear witness, that the object of said witness might have not been chosen.

Yoda said it best. "Difficult to see the future is..."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Jan 26 2007, 09:07 PM) [snapback]381488[/snapback]</div>

I think that is a bit of an over-generalization. You might want to consider that there are many believers out there who do necessarily not fit in to the mold of the person you will meet in Sunday School or in the cubicle next to you. Think about the contrast that must exist between a judgmental Christian you have met and a practicing Christian living in Communist China. The world of those who believe (or who God has chosen depending on your point of view) is larger than you think. Not every Christian believes that faith is spawned by coercion.

 

The difference between an atheist and a christian is that the atheist takes non-belief in god one god further than the christian.

PS - Efusco...did you have a lot of ice in your neck of the woods a couple weeks ago? I was working relief in the Springfield area. I have never seen ice like that before.

Faith is believing in your invisible friend without any proof. Like Santa and the Easter Bunny...we should be able to grow out of our delusions. May the FSM be with you.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(huskers @ Jan, 07:54 PM) [snapback]381500[/snapback]</div>

Ramen!

 

The best part of many of these arguments, are the way many tend to make assumptions about what God might actually be.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(huskers @ Jan 26 2007, 09:54 PM) [snapback]381500[/snapback]</div>

Faith can be based on proof. Faith lets you sit in a chair in a restaurant without testing for sturdiness, but that faith comes from repeated proof that chairs in restaurants generally hold up the patrons. I think a parallel can be made here. As for God, the level of proof required varies from person to person. For some it might be that God would need to part the sky or speak from a burning bush. For others it might be something more subtle.

As for God being invisible and akin to Santa, I suppose without faith he most surely is both.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Jan 26 2007, 10:26 PM) [snapback]381513[/snapback]</div>

I understand as I was raised in that environment - Southern Baptist to be specific. What is good, though, is that the message of God and faith can (and did in my case) overcome the failings of religion. Maybe I can give you something to discuss with these people that will leave them scratching their heads.

Faith in Christ brings salvation. Or does it? Southern Baptists teach (perhaps indirectly, but strongly nonetheless) that praying a special prayer and "asking Christ into your life" brings salvation. As I recall from reading the New Testament, that's completely un-Biblical. If this were true, then all the great men of faith in the Bible are burning in Hell as I type, including the thief on the cross that believed in Jesus and had his salvation confirmed by Jesus himself. Southern Baptists love to criticize the Catholic concept of Good Works for salvation, but the "prayer of faith" is nothing more than an attempt to gain God's favor by an act of self. Ask one of these smug people you know exactly what it was they did that insured their salvation. If they don't immediately correct you and say that it was nothing that they did except to believe in Christ, then they are not practicing true New Testament Christianity. I'd lay odds that they will tell you of some "experience" they had at some revival and will point you to specific prayer or thing they did to "acquire" salvation. While I'm sure that some Christians can remember an exact time and place when it hit them that they believed in Christ, for most of us it was a gradual process of becoming aware of our faith and the deciding to live on that decision.

Anyway, there are lots of other shenanigans you could play on these holier-than-thou people, but that one above should keep them disturbed for years to come.

 

I'm a Lutheran but that doesn't mean I blindly embrace every aspect of my faith. In fact, I have not been to church in several years. I called the church office one Monday and had my name removed from the directory and instructed her that I was not to be called, especially by the minister. The previous day, Sunday, I sat through a homophobic hate-filled sermon. Coincidentally this was just AFTER the minister's probation period was up and he was offered and accepted a permanent contract. Just to balance things out he also threw in a little fire and brimstone towards women who got pregnant without benefit of marriage.

I made it clear I would not be a party to a church of hate.

While I still contribute to Lutheran Social Services and I do consider myself a Lutheran, I don't go to a formal church.

I have also never accepted the whole Missionary thing. Oh sure, you can say you don't influence anyone but are just there to help and answer questions and if they come of their own free well, well hey. But...if you're in Mexico (a very Catholic country) and the Catholics aren't giving the poor food and clothes and medical treatment etc and you are, don't you think you might be influencing the people to become Lutherans out of gratitute. It's like bribing people to convert. Sure, do good works. But find a way to do it without making people feel obligated to join you. It's like the soup kitchens that force the homeless to pray with them before they'll let them eat.

As for your question, I don't care what Luther says. You can choose. You have free will. Believe in God or not, the choice is yours. No, you can't earn points. Salvation does involve faith and belief in Christ. But even though you choose to believe that doesn't get you in. Because it is through the Grace of God, not a choice of man. God decides.

Even so, I still have problems with this.

What about those who lead righteous "christian" lives but aren't christian? What about those that were brought up Buddhist or Hindu and never new about christianity or the bible? Are they damned forever? Well, I don't think so.

I also don't think that someone that chooses to lie, cheat steal, commit adultery, yet strongly, faithfully, beyond a doubt emphatically believes in God and Christ necessarily goes to heaven. You can't sin all week and make it go away with confessions a few Hail Marys and taking communion, then do it all again the next week.

I guess the bottom line is they don't call it faith for nothing. If it was easy, logical and made sense...you wouldn't need faith. It would be a given.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jan 26 2007, 06:16 PM) [snapback]381467[/snapback]</div>

Egads! The most I have seen is red-faced debates!


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jan 26 2007, 06:16 PM) [snapback]381467[/snapback]</div>

I'm a Calvinist, strong on at least 4 of John Calvin's "points", and I have the answer to this:

Christ told us to. And He uses us to complete the deal.

While we believe that man is totally depraved, and that God decides who is to be saved, and that he saves by his grace ("unmerited favor") that is irresistible to the person he calls, we also listen to his commandments. He said to go forth, and we do.

There is no commandment to button hole people ... there is no requirement to force people to listen to us. We are just to tell our story. St. Paul said that we should be ready with an answer if someone asks us about the hope within us ... and that "seeker" may be in the beginning stages of his drawing close to God. Jesus said if someone does not receive our message, to simply leave them. Their souls are not our responsibility. But God may use us to speak to them. And He's told us what to say. Irresistible as God's salvation is, God uses us to help guide the seeker in.

I respond with the reason for the hope within me because I may be a part of God's plan, and because He said to do so.

But I should note that most evangelical Christians today are not Calvinists; they have a weird mixture of Arminian and Calvinist doctrine, holding to a "free will uber alles" view, while still trying to maintain a "once saved, always saved" position that really, only a Calvinist can hold. If a man has free will, he has the ability to turn away once he has turned toward.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Les Gas @ Jan 26 2007, 09:08 PM) [snapback]381526[/snapback]</div>

You might be interested in a thread at my political and religious debate site, http://www.politetalk.com/forums/index.php?topic=100.0 and the article that started that thread http://www.politetalk.com/articles/postmodernism.php It isn't a site for most of the people here, because they can't stop themselves from calling each other names, but you might enjoy it (Daniel would too, because he doesn't engage in the name calling, and we only have one other atheist, and no FSM adherents).

There are some estimates that only some of the Christians are truly saved in the article, but I always find those kind of arguments unsatisfying; as a Calvinist, I believe that the right number of people are saved because God wills it, and I'm not impressed enough with my scholarship to say that I know who God has saved. "Assurance of salvation" really doesn't extend past your own heart to where you can make that determination about other people.

I suspect I'll be surprised at who I see in heaven. And they may be surprised to see me there.




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jan 26 2007, 09:09 PM) [snapback]381528[/snapback]</div>

Hmmm ... must be a Missouri Synod church? Try the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, ELCA, churches, as they are more liberal and don't engage in anti-gay rhetoric. Very loving people.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Jan 27 2007, 12:30 AM) [snapback]381533[/snapback]</div>

This was an ELCA church.

I was very careful to avoid Missouri Synod. When I bought my house I went to several churches in the area and I specifically avoided Missouri Synod. One wasn't so bad but they did seem a little on the vampiric side. Like they were desperate for me to join so they could start putting me to work.

There used to be several synods. I guess the one I grew up in was one of the more liberal. Then they all merged, except for Missouri. Church seemed to become a bit more conservative after that. And I have a problem with the Evangelical part. That's the part that sends Lutherans to Mexico with food, clothing and fiscal assistance and then is so proud when the family converts to Lutheran. Not only do I not force my religion on others, I'm not thrilled with some of the more recent definitions of Evangelical.

I miss the old hymnal. My old church is too far to drive to, even in my Prius. And to tell you the truth, at times I felt like I was being sucked dry. Singing in the choir was never enough. It was like when you buy one thing from a catalog, suddenly you're on every mailing list in the world. It isn't healthy to start resenting your Church. And frankly I never went to church as a substitution for lack of a social life. I have a life and no, it does not revolve around church. While I knew people and all that, I didn't need church as a substitute for family and friends. And I had no 'best freinds' in church. They were people I knew that I saw once a week. Outside of church, I never saw any of them. I also didn't like being forced into fake touchy feely social stuff. I don't like strangers hugging me. I'm not going to be instant friends with someone I don't know just because we're the same religion. I finally decided that I could commune with God without the building and without the shallow socializing. I miss the music. But I'm as strong in my faith as I ever was. I hope God enjoys talking in my garden. We talk a lot more often then when I went to church. And our conversations are on a much more positive note.

After a twenty year absence I did go back to my childhood church. My Mother and I packed up the dogs and went for the blessing of the animals. I like what they've done with the place. And they have a new pastor that seems like a real nice guy. But I'm not motivated to start attending regularly.

 

Hmm. As a Preacher, who teaches about Christ and His love, and His peace, and His understanding, I'm not all about man made rules.

Man created the need for the missionaries. If one is to succeed in business, one must have customers.

Apple® is a bit like a religion. In the way they foster faithfulness amongst their customers. In fact, some Apple® customers will buy their product, just because it is theirs.

The early people who followed Christ, they needed to build up the customer base; so they sent out people to recruit more people to buy the product.

Of course, this was to line their pockets. To feed their need for earthly power and food and housing. None of it very noble.

Today we should know better. We should be preaching about man getting along with other man, with love and peace and understanding. We should not be forcing our believes on those who don't want to believe. And that should be a two way street. If you are an atheist, don't try to force your POV that none of this is real on me, and I won't try to force you to believe that God is real.

Frankly, none of us really know. None of us was there at the beginning. Hell, for all we know, we are just figments of our imagination.

If having faith gives you peace, and makes your day easier, what's the big deal? Good for you. If not having faith makes your day easier, good for you.

Missionaries are trying to sell a product that is available for free.




Oh-And can a person choose to believe in God? Sure.

Why not? It's not like you can't.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jan 26 2007, 10:20 PM) [snapback]381564[/snapback]</div>

I'm surprised ... all the ELCA folks I know are moderate to liberal politically, and either libertarian or liberal socially. Perhaps there's a fundie movement within the ELCA! Don't worry about the "evangelical" in the name; its a little like "colored people" in the NAACP; a hold over from before the word was co-opted by others to mean a specific political mindset.

You might be more at home in a United Church of Christ church, or you could be like me, one of the great un-churched. While I'm a religious guy, I have never been comfortable in church, as I wasn't raised with any church attendance at all, and find the whole scene a little baffling.