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CH₄ + 2O₂ ⇒

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by ChapmanF, Sep 14, 2018.

  1. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Is anybody finding informative coverage of the apparent natural-gas goings-on in Massachusetts?

    The most I was able to find last night was that Columbia Gas was believed to have overpressurized some gas lines.

    I know that my buried line comes in at a higher pressure than is used in the house; there's a big regulator outside where the buried line enters the meter manifold.

    It sounds like some of the people affected in Massachusetts noticed their appliances firing higher than they should, so I guess the regulator outdoors must have a maximum inlet pressure, above which the outlet pressure rises. So it's not the sort of regulator that could vent an overpressure to outdoors?

    Here and there by the side of a road I see a large regulator with a tall stack rising from it, rain cap on top. I've always assumed those are capable of relieving an uncontrolled overpressure, by venting it up the stack.

    What on earth happened in MA?

    -Chap
     
  2. bobzchemist

    bobzchemist Active Member

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    At this point, no one knows for sure, and the investigation might take a year. (My mother-in-law lives 10 miles from the area, and works in one of the towns where the explosions/fires have happened.)

    The current theory is that the high-pressure main gas lines were pressurized at much too high a level. Ordinarily, (in other areas, at least) this wouldn't be a problem, but the gas lines in the North Boston area are notoriously poorly maintained and old. The gas and electricity has been shut off, the area evacuated, and all the roads leading in to the area are closed.

    To my mind, this is what you get when you allow a for-profit, private company to own and operate what should be a public utility. Yes, when the government runs these things, they are less "efficient" than a private company would be, but at least there's no incentive to make extra profits by neglecting maintenance.
     
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  3. bobzchemist

    bobzchemist Active Member

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    My assumption (without a shred of evidence, but it's logical) is either that the lines leading from the over-pressurized gas main were in such bad shape that there was no time to relieve the pressure before things started blowing up, or that Columbia Gas didn't realize the gas main was over-pressured until things started blowing up. Or maybe both.
     
  4. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    no answers yet, over pressurization is the prevailing theory. not sure how that happens though.
     
  5. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Recently hired Flint water employees.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  6. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    So you expect a government organization typically chronically starved for funds by the political machine to do better?

    Regulated utility with a charter with requirements policed with funds from the profits from the charter might be a better organizational structure. Competed every ten years. Or ????

    All you have to do is look at the current story about funds diverted from FEMA to ICE to see how politics intrudes in how government organizations get funded. Or the IRS budget cuts considering that for every dollar of funding their increased enforcement of the tax policies dictated by politics gives back to the treasury many multiples of dollars.

    Typed while in the bands of Florence. Safe but thinking of all those in harms way.
     
  7. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    A friend of ours had to evacuate for this. Luckily, his apartment was not the one exploded. What I don't understand is how over-pressurized gas lines leads to multiple explosions?
     
  8. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    The overpressure comes out at multiple leak locations, inside numerous customer premises.
     
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  9. bobzchemist

    bobzchemist Active Member

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    You make a really good point - sheltering the maintenance function against political greed is critically important. I don't pretend I have great answers to this - I'd be fine with a regulated, chartered, local utility company if it were reliably monitored and the monitors/regulators weren't captured by the utility company. It just turns my stomach to hear that maintenance had been deliberately neglected for years, putting people's lives and property at risk, just so the corporate overlords in Indiana can make a few extra dollars.

    I think the enormous size of NiSource is a major part of the problem. How is a company that "serves" 3.5 million natural gas customers across seven states ever going to care about local conditions?

    A disaster this size should be a big enough problem to whoever is running the gas system that they work diligently to keep it from ever happening again. But even if they have to pay all the damages in full out of their own pocket (they won't, they have insurance against this sort of thing), NiSource would barely notice the small blip on their balance sheets.
     
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  10. bobzchemist

    bobzchemist Active Member

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    A new/properly maintained system will have a safety margin built-in, so leaks won't happen even if there is too much pressure. But old, weak, or corroded pipes, fittings, meters, appliances, etc. will give way at all the weak spots, just like an old garden hose would if you hit it with too much water pressure. Then, once you have enough leaks, all it takes is a stray spark or two, and...

    Most utility companies inspect their gas mains and house pipes at least yearly, and replace anything that looks like it's going bad. But this costs money. It looks like Columbia Gas neglected these inspections/replacements in at least 70 locations. Although, to be fair, we don't know just how much the gas main was over-pressurized. If you hook a garden hose to a fire hydrant, for example, even a brand-new hose will start leaking.
     
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  11. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Why? The fire hydrants here are connected to the very same water supply mains as the house supplies, thus have the very same static pressure.
     
  12. bobzchemist

    bobzchemist Active Member

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    OK, that was a bad example. In my defense, I was trying to give an explanation with things that would be familiar products to everyone.

    Let's try this - If you hook a garden hose up to the output of a regular faucet, it sees about 40psi pressure. If you hook a garden hose up to the output of one of the 20hp centrifugal pumps we use here at work, it will be exposed to about 175 psi. At that level of pressure, seals, fastenings, and even the fabric of the hose itself will start to spring leaks.

    I think that something similar happened in Lawrence - the gas main was exposed to more pressure than it was able to contain, and that was why there were a great many leaks. There are two possible explanations for the containment failure - either the pipes and fittings, etc. had degraded to the point of not being able to contain a mild over-pressure, or the over-pressure was so extreme that the pipes, which were in good condition, couldn't contain the gas. Verbal evidence from friends and family in the area about frequent other, more limited leaks leads me to think that the first theory is correct, and that the gas company has been neglecting maintenance for a while - but I could be wrong.
     
  13. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    don't gas lines have pressure reducers before entering a building?

    i've seen construction physically pull the lines out, but i think new installations have exterior break off's.
     
  14. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    But even those have finite limits on how much intake pressure they can handle.
     
  15. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    blow right through them? i thought they had pressure relief valve?
     
  16. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    Thanks for the explanations. I never lived in a house with gas line, though I have hoped for having gas service to our house for heat for a long time. I am having a second thought now.
     
  17. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The relief valve would blow, releasing gas into the area, where it might still get inside the structure. It should be better than leaks inside though.

    This assumes the relief valves themselves were in working condition. They work on hot water tanks to keep them exploding, but not if a leaky one is simply closed off instead of replaced.
     
  18. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    One widely re-reported anecdote is about Ra Nam running into his basement and finding it "glowing", because the "boiler was on fire". That sounds to me not so much like gas just leaking from random pipe joints, but reaching the boiler at excess pressure, and overfiring the burner.

    So, the regulator sitting in front of my gas meter on the side of the house seems to be an American Meter 1813C.

    1813C.png

    That screened-off opening (facing down, as it's installed on my house, so ice/snow/bird plop won't block it off) has two purposes: normally, it's the atmospheric pressure reference for the regulator to base its outlet pressure on (nominally 7 inches water-column above atmospheric, ranging from 5.5" to 8.5"). But in the event of a failure to regulate, it is also the opening that gas will be dumped from, to limit the overpressure that reaches my appliances.
    It can either be a 3/4" or 1" NPT opening. Mine seems to have the 1".

    1813Cint.png

    Gas at a higher pressure from the utility enters in the red area, where it flows through the orifice ❼ when it isn't stopped off by the rubber disc ❻. The outlet pressure (blue) acts on one side of the diaphragm, balanced against atmospheric plus spring pressure on the other side. When the outlet pressure drops below setpoint, the disc is pulled away from the orifice to let gas in, and above setpoint, the disc is pushed against the orifice.

    These can come with different orifice sizes, depending on the flow rate the customer needs. The larger the orifice, the lower the inlet (utility) side pressure the regulator can handle (because the inlet pressure ✕ the orifice area is the force pushing against the disc, and if high enough, it will force the disc open, and regulation is lost). I have a dinky house, so the orifice in my regulator is the smallest one offered, which is nice, because the pressure from the utility would have to exceed 125 psi to force it open.

    If anything does make the outlet pressure rise too much (excess pressure from the utility, piece of grot between the orifice and disc, etc.), it will push the diaphragm so far that the relief valve stem sticking up through the diaphragm will be stopped by the inside of the adjustment cap ❾, and at a pressure determined by the relief valve spring (purple one, ⓯), the diaphragm parts company with the relief valve, and the gas is dumped out the vent opening.

    All my appliances contain their own regulators, which assume they are getting the nominal 7"WC pressure from the outdoor regulator, and drop it down further to the 3.5" or 4" the appliance burners are sized for. Those regulators in my appliances all say never to expose them to more than 1/2 psi input, or about 14"WC.

    The fixed purple relief spring in my outdoor regulator begins to vent at 8" above the regulator set pressure of 7". That is, it begins to vent at 15"WC, which is already slightly above the "never expose to" limit for my appliance valves.

    Beyond the pressure where the relief valve begins to vent, it's just a matter of graphing how fast gas can be dumped through the vent opening vs. the pressure coming in, to see what the outlet pressure might actually climb up to:

    relief.png

    Because I have the smallest (red) orifice, it looks like the worst case for me would be around 34"WC, or about 2½ times the inlet pressure limit for my appliances. (Or maybe that's just where they stopped plotting the graph, at 125 psi input. Maybe we don't know what the line pressure actually hit in Massachusetts.) For larger customers with larger orifices, it gets worse from there.

    This regulator comes in models with an overpressure safety that trips a spring and shuts it clean off. I don't know how much more that feature adds to the cost. Suddenly, I'm kind of curious.

    -Chap
     
    #18 ChapmanF, Sep 14, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
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  19. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    I've never lived in a home with gas service either. We thought about it at one time, to save on electric heating costs, but the cost to run service to the house was excessive. Much later incentives, when full length trenching was no longer required, enticed two neighbors to spring for it.

    But I have moved beyond that to a ductless heat pump, air source, now accompanied by solar PV. Combined with multiple other active and passive energy upgrades, my house is now all-electric with net-zero energy consumption. I.e. my house produces all the energy it needs, though it must remain tied to the electric grid due to the time- and season-shift between production and consumption.
     
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  20. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    the finger pointing has already begun.
     
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