Climate change continues to melt Glacier National Park

We are in an interglacial warming period.
So what?

 

Something more for you to worry about .
The glaciers that were a mile deep in Death Valley,California have completely melted.
Very scary.
Now its hot there.Very hot.
Must be global warming.

 

But they didn't melt in a matter of a few short years due to the effect of human caused global warming!

Icarus

 

Glacier Nat Park has been melting for 15,000 years.
Thats no longer than Death Valley,just slower.

 

Have you actually looked at pictures taken over the last couple of decades at Glacier? Or Ice Fields in AB, or Glacier Bay AK?

They may have been melting for thousands of years, but clearly they have been melting much faster of late!

To equate the end of the last ice age with the current rate of glacial melting is just plain mis-informed if not ignorant.

 

Glaciers are supposed to melt.Have you looked at the Death Valley Glaciers lately?

If the Spaghetti Monster wanted glaciers permanent, he would have made glaciers out of noodles and banned all pirates.

 

If you are willing to take a peek at Dr. Fagre's pub list

Dan Fagre's Technical Publications | Northern Rocky Mountain Science Center (NOROCK)

And (freely) download Hall and Fagre 2003 and Pederson et al. 2004, I think you will get a clear idea of the basis of his thinking. Those are not tough papers to read, especially the former.

If I might dare to summarize, in the past the Pacific decadal oscillation has dominated the waxing and waning in this location. Warming of a couple degrees C would push them into a new situation. That would be 'absent'.

There may be sufficient knowledge of (that area's) glaciology and climatology among PC readers to challenge such a conclusion. Not expressed yet here though. Sorry, chums.

Mojo, what the heck? Are you taking about Pleistocene Lake Manly in Death Valley, or something else I cannot even guess at.

 

Can you tell me more about Death Valley's glaciers? Did they exist during the most recent Ice Age? I hadn't heard about them going that far south, or even much beyond where I live.

Those alluvial fans look inconsistent with any recent glaciation.

 

"If the Spaghetti Monster wanted glaciers permanent, he would have made glaciers out of noodles and banned all pirates."

If wishes were horses then paupers would ride.

Or, if my Aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

None of which changes the reality of climate change.

Please explain to me how, in what is in essence a closed biosphere how you can increase what is known as insulating greenhouse gas by the magnitude we have in the last 200 years and not see warming in global climate and not see global warming?

Icarus

 

It seems to be a logical fallacy to argue that because we are in a natural warming period there cannot possibly be any man made global warming. The two events are not exclusive; there can be both occurring at the same time.

 

OK I admit it ,I was mistaken.
I thought the glaciers moved a lot further south in every glacial period.
I gather it was 650 million years ago when there last were glaciers in Death Valley ,so using that was a poor example.

 

Of course natural and man made warming are both occurring.
The effects of AGW may be infinitesimal.
But using melting glaciers to prove it is absurd.
If I build a snowman in April and it melts is that proof of global warming?After all ,AGW may have accelerated the melting .
But using the glaciers melting during an interglacial period as proof of AGW amounts to the same thing.
First prove how much glacial melting is due to the interglacial warming period.
After that ,THEN you can assess the further effect of AGW.
But no one bothers to.
They just say the snowman melted due to AGW.

 

The explanation is; Volcanos, sunspots, or lack thereof. A couple of more things to think about taxing us to "fix."

 

Your statement is ridiculous at best. First, you accept that there is both nature and man caused global warming happening at the same time. So far so good. But to then say (without any citation) that the effects of man caused warming is infinitesimal is simply ridiculous. Then you go on to say that AGW may have accelerated the warming. So, which is it?

The glacial evidence of accelerated glacial melting is pretty compelling. By looking at ice cores over thousands of years, and analyzing CO2 concentrations over time periods (I don't profess to understand much of it) the record shows a considerable acceleration of melting in the time period following the industrial revolution. (and with corresponding CO2 levels).

What I have suggested in my earlier post(s) regarding early ice out in the sub arctic. You may not be able make a snowman in April!

Once again, explain to me how, in what is essentially closed bio-sphere, you can pump in thousands of times as much of a know greenhouse insulator over the past ~200 years and not have it raise the temperature of that bio-sphere. The leap of logic to conclude anything else is just absurd.

Icarus

 

And yet another ridiculous statement!

Solar activity & climate: is the sun causing global warming?


Did you happen to see the news today that demonstrated that in spite of what the anti-tax folks think, fully 47% of Americans pay no federal income tax at all,,, none,, zippo, nada! (tax year 2009)

Oh, and by the way, that is up from ~37% in 2007,,, so much for The President "redistributing" the wealth through his socialist agenda!

 

Thanks for following up on that Death Valley thing. You had me worried...

Snowman = strawman (sorry, I do not find earth system scientists making arguments at all similar to this)

Disentangling 'background' and fossil-fuel CO2 effects on temperature has been done several times. One example is Crowley 2000; read most of it here:

NOAA Paleoclimatology Program - Crowley 2000 Causes of Climate Change Over the Past 1000 Years

Globally, many glaciers are in very bad shape that have been accumulating for millenia. As we have discussed in threads like this before, this is why i.e., Lonnie Thompson has been scrambling to obtain ice cores before all the information therein contained melts (or sublimes) away.

Summary, it seems quite clear to me (and the authors of the papers I luv to cite) that temperature and many related matters over the past century are qualitatively different than preceeding. CO2 absorbs outgoing infrared and is rapidly increasing. No other potential causes fit the evidence. If one chooses to declare that 'it's not CO2', I really doubt it will make any difference.

 

The sunspot shortage of the past few years has ended, so we can bury that excuse now.

SpaceWeather.com

 

Frankly I dont think this study (based on Mann no less),has a clue about the natural "background" of climate change.
How can they separate the background when they barely can guess as to what causes natural climate change?
They cannot predict what the background will differ in any moment in the future.
They do not have the ability to forecast the background,a second or minute into the future.
The Earth could have begun to enter the next ice age today and no one would realize it for years or decades.
Or on the other hand ,the interglacial warming period could CONTINUE to naturally raise temperatures, and scientists wouldnt have a clue at all ,as to how much rise is natural background.
They would just say ,"There is no explanation so it must be AGW"
Not very good science.
The correct scientific answer is "There is no explanation,so the conclusion is inconclusive"
They dont even know how to calculate the effect of water vapor on climate change.
The most important greenhouse gas.

 

Skeptical Science: Examining Global Warming Skepticism

I've found this a good resource. It takes a skeptical view of climate change skepticism. The arguments sometimes go over my head, but it is presented in a straightforward manner with little hysteria.

I hope man is responsible for a substantial part of global warming, so we can stop or at least minimize it. Otherwise, we are going to be paying a lot of money to protect our coasts from rising seas. As it is, we should be planning for it now, including figuring out how to pay for it.