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Compare new Toyota Hybrid vs Honda Hybrid from a Toyota Mechanic

Discussion in 'Gen 5 Prius Technical Discussion' started by Hctim, May 7, 2023.

  1. Hctim

    Hctim Junior Member

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    I did not know where to stick this info so change the location if need be.
    Both new versions of the hybrids. I really like this Toyota mechanic, seems very honest.
    Plus and minus of both hybrids. Not apples to apples but a review of how each company does the hybrid thing.. I found it very interesting as I have had both Toyotas and Hondas.
    m

     
  2. samsprius1

    samsprius1 HEV Fanatic

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    I watch him follow him! #1 Toyota mechanic in my book! I kind of had a feeling i knew what the outcome before he started. I’ve never had a problem with my two previous Prius or my wife’s 2019 RAV4 hybrid ! I’ll stick with Toyota! now compare the new Prius to the accord hybrid I’ll still take the Prius✌️
     
  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    would like to see honda mech impressions
     
  4. ReneHodges

    ReneHodges New Member

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    Here are some general points about each company's approach to hybrid technology:

    Toyota Hybrids:

    Toyota has a strong reputation for hybrid technology, with a wide range of hybrid models available in their lineup, including the Prius, Camry Hybrid, and RAV4 Hybrid, among others.
    Toyota's hybrid systems typically use a combination of a gasoline engine and an electric motor to optimize fuel efficiency and reduce emissions.
    Toyota's hybrid technology focuses on achieving high fuel economy and reliability, which has contributed to their popularity among consumers.
    The company has invested heavily in hybrid technology research and development, leading to continuous improvements in their hybrid systems over the years.
    Honda Hybrids:

    Honda has also made significant strides in the hybrid market, with models like the Honda Insight, Accord Hybrid, and CR-V Hybrid.
    Honda's hybrid systems, like Toyota's, combine a gasoline engine with an electric motor. However, Honda has also experimented with different hybrid configurations, such as their Integrated Motor Assist (IMA) system used in some earlier models.
    Honda's hybrid vehicles aim to provide a balance between fuel efficiency and performance, with an emphasis on a sportier driving experience compared to some other hybrids.
    Honda has been incorporating hybrid technology into various models in their lineup, giving consumers a broader range of options.
     
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  5. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    #5 bisco, Jun 15, 2023
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2023
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  6. farmecologist

    farmecologist Senior Member

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    Great video and verifies what I have thought for a long time. The Toyota HSD is far more mechanically simple than Honda's ( and others ) system, leading to a more "rugged" transmission that is less prone to failure. Interesting that he thought Toyota's hybrid braking system is better than Honda as well...first time I have heard that.

    Now if Toyota can get their head gasket S&*T together....:whistle:. Hopefully they have.

    Despite that, I'll be sticking with Toyota hybrids. (y)
     
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  7. Hammersmith

    Hammersmith Senior Member

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    Yeah, I wondered about that comment as well. lol

    Honda is focusing on having only three hybrids. A compact sedan/hatchback(Civic), compact CUV(CR-V), and mid-sized sedan(Accord).

    At the same time, Toyota currently has 12 hybrids(with two more coming), 2 plug-in hybrids, 1 electric, and 1 hydrogen. And Toyota has at least one hybrid in most every market segment. Some of the categories could be nitpicked(is it a CUV or SUV, mid-sized or full-sized, etc.), but I think the following is mostly accurate(for USDM):

    Corolla - compact sedan
    Prius - compact hatchback
    Corolla Cross - compact CUV
    RAV4 - compact SUV
    Stout - compact pickup(coming)
    Camry - mid-sized sedan
    Venza - mid-sized CUV
    Highlander - mid-sized SUV
    Tacoma - mid-sized pickup(coming)
    Crown - full-sized sedan(ish)
    Grand Highlander - full-sized CUV
    Sequoia - full-sized SUV
    Tundra - full-sized pickup
    Sienna - minivan

    plus bZ4X, Mirai, and Prius and RAV4 Primes
     
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  8. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Honda is a smaller car company. Perspective is skewed here, because North America is their biggest market, but globally they might sell half the number of cars that Toyota does. Toyota's US site has more cars and minivans listed than Honda's total vehicles. Honda doesn't even make full frame vehicles like the Tacoma and Forerunner; it is all unibodies. But how many lawnmowers and jets has Toyota sold.

    Honda has also been, mmm, cautious with hybrds after how they handled the IMA and NiMH issue. Their reputation was tarnished so bad that the new Civic hybrid we had until recently was named the Insight III. The hybrid Jazz/Fit is popular overseas. It beats the Aqua in japan in sales some months. The performance hybrid system the US got in a couple Acuras is probably the better AWD, with an individual motor for each rear wheel.
    Eh, has the difference actually lead to a reliability difference in practice. The Prius has had issues in software and inverters with results as bad as a poor transmission to the user.

    Toyota has more hybrids and upcoming ones than total models Honda sells in the US.

    If we are going to FCEVs, Honda, with GM's partnership, might have the technology advantage. They've been 'selling' a FCEV car in California for longer. As for plug ins, they are like Toyota, in denial. They've had models available in the past. The clutches in the transaxle are deemed a disadvantage here, but it means not having to add them for a plug in like Toyota does.
     
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  9. ukulelegeek

    ukulelegeek Member

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    So, according to him. it just boils down to what a customer wants....???
     
  10. ukulelegeek

    ukulelegeek Member

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    The first hybrid I ever rode in was a Honda Insight, owned by my best friend. It looked like something from a sci-fi movie. The seats were horrible, and it rode like a sports car. But I liked it.
    The 2nd hybrid I rode in was owned by her mother, a Gen 2 Prius. That car sold me on hybrids!
     
  11. ukulelegeek

    ukulelegeek Member

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    Cool comparison video, but that "music" made me feel like I was on hold....
     
  12. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    It really wasn't an indepth comparison. He also repeats the Ford copying Toyota myth.

    Honda's two motor system is actually simpler in operation. The traction motor drives the wheels. It is powered by the battery, or a generator being driven by the engine in a series mode. At higher speeds, the engine can clutch in to directly drive the wheels. It does so alone, or in parallel with the traction motor. There isn't a planetary gear set where the control unit has to balance the interplay between the engine and M/G1. When the engine is driving the wheels in the Honda, the unit just has to decide to have the generator make electricity or not.

    The new 4th gen system in the C-RV, not the Accord, has two gear sets and clutches as the video describes. The low allows the engine to be used for lower speed. It might lead to better overall efficiency, but I think it is mostly to allow the C-RV to do truck work, like towing.

    Honda's news release on the 4th gen system.
    Honda Two-Motor Hybrid-Electric System

    This goes into the 2nd gens transaxle. The 4th has the two M/Gs side by side instead of inline, but the basic operation and modes should be the same.


    This isn't Honda's only hybrid system. The Jazz has a parallel one with a DCT. I say it's like what Hyundai/Kia use, but it came out a couple years before those. The sport hybrid system is basically that with a bigger engine, and two rear motors for AWD.
     
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  13. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    reading thru post 4 again, i'm reminded of AI
     
  14. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    Ford did license Toyota's patents. Honda did not and have struggled.
     
  15. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Doesn't mean they copied them.

    For that generation of hybrid system, Toyota had over 120 patents. When Ford went to file their own, they saw that there was potential infringement with 21 of them. Instead of racking up court fees, both sides reached a patent swap agreement, which is a common practice. Ford got rights to those patents, and Toyota got access to some of Ford's that they had been eyeing.

    If Ford copied Toyota's hybrid system, Toyota copied Ford's diesel engines and emission controls, and they both copied Paice.

    The successive generations of hybrid systems of each didn't overlap.

    Honda's struggles were because they were too aggressive with the NiMH SOC, which lead to early battery deaths. Haven't heard of any issues since they went with Li-ion.
     
  16. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    Honda could not do Toyota's planetary gear cvt transaxle and still has a compromised system. Ford was able to start with the best and move from there.
     
  17. jdenenberg

    jdenenberg EE Professor

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    My problem with Honda isn't that they had problems with their NiMh early battery deaths, It was their solution to the problem. They chose to change their firmware to make less use of the battery so that the battery would fail after the warranty expired. This left their hybrids with poorer performance and lower MPG than was advertised. If I had owned one of their hybrids, I would have demanded that they either replace the battery and retained the old firmware or buy the car back at the value it would have if the problem had never occurred.

    I do not buy products from companies that mistreat their customers. Th problem is that I am running out of companies from whom I am willing to buy products.

    JeffD
     
    #17 jdenenberg, Jun 16, 2023
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2023
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  18. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    In what way is the Honda system compromised? The EPA rating and Fuelly reports of the Accord are comparable to the Camry.

    Today, Toyota is following the rest into parallel hybrids.
     
  19. jdenenberg

    jdenenberg EE Professor

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    These issues were with the early Honda Civic Hybrids (2004) and their reaction to increasing warranty costs. It has nothing to do with their current products. I just have a long memory when a manufacturer misbehaves.

    JeffD
     
  20. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    That is what wrecked their rep with hybrids, and why they've been more cautious with the new ones. I think they might have taken a year off of shipping the new Accord hybrid over concerns they had in the system.
    Exactly, but some are claiming issues in the current system. Like Hyundai, Honda has just taken a different path to the same results.
     
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