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Dealer won't change/unaware of Transaxle fliud change?!?

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Care, Maintenance & Troubleshooting' started by DanMode, Mar 18, 2011.

  1. DanMode

    DanMode Brooklyn Prius Guy

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    Hey folks,

    I know that there have been several threads already open about this, but while searching through them I still couldn't seem to find the info I am looking for.

    Last weekend I had gone into my dealer for 40,000 mile service. (Oil Change/Rotation) I had also mentioned to them that I would like to have the transaxle fluid drained and filled up again on recommendation of fellow Prius drivers.

    They gladly do all the other services for me (they are a very friendly dealer and the service people are quite courteous). However, the person in the service department comes over to me, sits me down and tells me that the transaxle service is not necessary at this point and time.

    I told them, yes, I know that it's not 'required', but I would like to do it anyway. Then she goes on and tells me that since Toyota recommends changing the 'coolant' at 100,000 miles, that there is really no reason for this to be done now.

    Now, here's where I'm confused. Is the transaxle fluid actually 'coolant'? I was under the impression that it's an oil and that several members here have changed it around 30-40k miles (some even sooner at 5-15k). I'm getting a bit nervous here, since I have a long trip to NC soon (1100 mile-round trip) in a week, and I would've had more peace of mind had this service been done.

    But is the dealer clueless on what I was asking them to do? I had given specific instruction to change the "Transaxle" fluid. Is this not sufficient? I have to admit, this is also coming from a dealer that was unaware that the Gen III requires 0W-20 oil (it says so on the knob itself). That's why I've been bringing in my own oil for each change since.

    I know that some folks here are DIY, but I do not have the resources to do that where I am, plus I would like to at least have any work done on the car at a dealer so they have 'documents' detailing the work should any issue come up.

    Another thing is, this dealer is not too far from my folks place in Upstate NY, and I'm very weary of going to dealers near my area in NYC. (They are REALLY incompetent when it comes to servicing vehicles).

    I see that some folks aren't that stressed about changing the fluid til around 60k. It seems almost like no one will go the full 100k though. I just want to keep my car running in tip-top shape. I have plans on taking this vehicle over 300k and would want to keep it running in good condition.

    I'm just getting a little nervous that I might be putting too much strain on the car now, without having had the initial transaxle fluid changed so far. Do I go back into the dealer (I have an opportunity tomorrow), or do I try my luck at another service area? Does anyone know of any reputable dealer service stations in the NYC/NJ area? Am I just worrying too much about nothing?

    Thanks for your help.
    Regards,
    Dan
     
  2. GSW

    GSW PRIUS POWER

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    Dan, I had the same problem with my dealer service. They would not do a transaxle oil change a 30k miles. And it is ATF-WS which is oil and NOT coolant. Scares me to think these guys are suppose to be Toyota service technicians and only know a few facts about the cars, especially hybrids. I'm glad I do my own oil change and if I could find a level lift I would change the transaxle oil myself.
     
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  3. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

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    I just had my Transaxle fluid changed at 60,000. They told me it was un necessary until 100,000, but when I said wanted it done now they sadly took my $107
     
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  4. ksstathead

    ksstathead Active Member

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  5. tumbleweed

    tumbleweed Senior Member

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    If you take your planned trip before you get it changed I think you need not worry, just go and have a good time. Get it changed when you return.

    It is nice your dealer advises you that Toyota doesn't require it but they should do it anyway if you request it.

    Your dealer's service department may not realize there is more than one reason manufacturers sometimes don't recommend such maintenance. One reason is certainly that some things don't need to be done. Another is that they want to tell customers that the car requires very little maintenance.

    But with the Prius transaxle the reason may be that Toyota wants to be sure people use their ATF-WS fluid because our transaxles have high voltage electrical components in them and other ATF fluids may not be designed for that. If it is a required maintenance item Toyota might run into problems in the U.S. if they say you can only use a fluid they sell exclusively. I'm not a lawyer but I believe our warranty laws would require them to supply the fluid free if they do that. Toyota probably believes it is better to leave the original in than it would be to have people using other brands of ATF. I do agree that you should never use anything but Toyota's ATF-WS for this application.

    The used oil analysis I had performed on mine after 20K miles does indicate that it is worth doing if you plan of keeping the car for a long time.
     
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  6. Den49

    Den49 Member

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    Did you ask to speak with the service manger? That would be a good next step. Sounds like you may have just gotten unlucky to deal with one of their less knowledgeable reps. I would be surprised if the manager would not accommodate you by performing a service that makes them money, even if they think it is not necessary.

    To reinforce that you should have the transmission oil changed, I changed mine myself at 26,000 and it was discolored, indicating that there is work and wear going on inside. I'm of the opinion that changing the transmission oil at 30,000 intervals is cheap insurance against failure. Does anyone have any idea what the replacement cost is for the Prius transmission?
     
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  7. DanMode

    DanMode Brooklyn Prius Guy

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    Thanks everyone for your help! I had a feeling that what I was being told wasn't really the case. I may not know what every bit of the car runs on, but at least I know what coolant is supposed to do. ;)

    Alas, getting some late news, it seems I may just have to wait until after the trip to North Carolina to get it done. But believe me, it'll get done. Thanks again for the info everyone! I always know I can rely on some solid folks on here regarding everything Prii!

    Have a great weekend!
     
  8. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk EGR Fanatic

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    That sounds very plausable. Still, fwiw: second Honda Civic Hybrids also have a specific fluid for their CVT: the maintenance schedule stipulates only the Honda fluid can be used. They stipulate a service interval, again, too long for my taste.

    Also, Toyota Canada stipulates an interval for Transaxle fluid change, I believe 48000 km or 4 years (going from memory, my book's at home). I was pretty much convinced there was no change interval, but careful re-reading: I believe now there is.

    The Canadian document outlining maintenance covers every Toyota vehicle, and is very broken up and confusing.
     
  9. jdimetal

    jdimetal New Member

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    Am I the only one who does not understand why you are changing a fluid that the maker of the car says is not necessary until 100K? If you have money burning a hole in your pocket then please send it my way...I even accept Payments through PayPal.
     
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  10. GSW

    GSW PRIUS POWER

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    Some members have sent off samples of the ATF-WS fluid to have it analyzed. If I recall, some reports have stated up to a 15% loss of viscosity in the first 30,000 miles. Its just a precautionary measure if you plan on keeping the car for an extended amount of time. Fellow members please correct me if I'm wrong.
     
  11. DanMode

    DanMode Brooklyn Prius Guy

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    This is my understanding as well. And I plan on keeping my car for a very long time. As for money burning holes through my pockets, my pants still seem to be in good shape. Besides, it's better to spend a little bit of money now then a lot of money down the road. (I'd rather be driving on it at that point) :cool:
     
  12. adamace1

    adamace1 Senior Member

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    Do you really trust a dealer to do this? Is this the same dealer that didn't know to use 0-20 oil? Can you be sure they will use the right oil, if they don't you just paid them 100-200 bucks to shorten the life of your trans.

    I have seen a few member on here with over 200k on their transaxels and never touched the fluid. I'm not convinced it will do any good. I also would only do mine myself, most dealers can't handle putting the correct oil type/ ammount in a engine. I can't trust them with the tansaxel fluid change, there is no dipstick to double check their work what if they fill it a quart low, or wrong fluid.
     
  13. jdenenberg

    jdenenberg EE Professor

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    Toyota has a conflict of interest here.

    1. They want to be able to minimize periodic maintenance requirements in their sales brochures.
    2. They are not responsible for repair costs out of warranty - we pay for it.
    I know that some Prii Gen2 transmission have gone 200k miles without changing the ATF (one is reported at 300k miles). There have been a small number that have had Transmission failures at about 100k miles and all of these were still on their original ATF.

    We (a group of technically oriented Prius owners) have done lab testing of used ATF and found that an early (at about 30k miles) ATF refresh is advisable. Periodic ATF Drain/Refills at 60k miles are cheap insurance (about $100 at a reasonable dealer) against a costly (~$8k for a new one, ~$2k for a salvaged unit) transmission replacement. Attached is an annotated lab report on my 2004 Prius ATF at 61k, 120k and 180k miles.

    You can, of course, choose to just trust Toyota's suggestion for your Prius. It is your call.

    JeffD
     

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  14. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

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    This is a good question, I hope I have a good answer.

    There are simple (in car) tests for engine and inverter coolant, brake fluid, and brake pads/drums. Engine oil and ATF for the transaxle are much more difficult to test, you send them off to a lab for analysis. The folks who do this report the engine oil change interval is fine and the Toyota reccomended ATF interval is too long. I just pay attention to those willing to do this research.

    My last Toyota lasted 20 years, I am treating this one as if it will too. Spending an 'extra' $20 a year for a service that the tech cannot test seems to be a placebo I can live with.

    At least I am not buying miracle gas additives and splitfire spark plugs to go with a tornado supercharger. :D
     
  15. adamace1

    adamace1 Senior Member

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    I'm still wondering about this.

    I have seen many GM transmisions go 200k on the original fluid, and they have clutches that slip and would cause more heat/material to end up in the fluid. I thought our cars don't have this causing wear on the fluid.

    Am i right to assume the prius is easer on trans fluid than a chevy work truck?

    Has anybody have their ATF sent in and tested with bad results? Did they say it was all used up and causeing harm?

    I still can't trust a dealer to do this cause their is no way for me to check their work.
    1. They will just charge me and not do it.
    2. They will underfill the fluid, i think this is worse than not changing it at all.
    3. They will use the wrong fluid.

    maybe I should try to get a bunch of fellow priuschat members in NC together for a transaxel fluid change event.LOL
     
  16. jdenenberg

    jdenenberg EE Professor

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    Did you read post 13 above?

    JeffD
     
  17. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Yes, I had my transaxle ATF tested once at 30K miles, and the report was that viscosity had declined 15% and that the used fluid contained significant amounts of Si and Fe particles. Hence the conclusion was that it was reasonable to replace the ATF.

    I'm not making a statement regarding whether the Prius transaxle is harder on ATF than a Chevrolet truck transmission. I don't care about the Chevy as I don't own one. If I owned that truck, then I would replace the ATF at 30K mile intervals.

    If you look at the 200K mile club you will find a group of Prius owners who have not bothered to replace the transaxle ATF fluid and have not had any problems. A search will also reveal postings from a group of Prius owners whose transaxles have failed, not necessarily at high miles.

    If you feel lucky then you'll expect to become a member of the first group by performing the minimum maintenance per the manufacturer's schedule. However periodic transaxle ATF changes won't hurt, and may improve your chances of reaching 200K miles without becoming a member of the second group. Further, many of the owners who DIY the transaxle fluid change have posted their sense of accomplishment at getting the visibly dirty fluid out of the transaxle.
     
  18. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

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    I think you are right. So much so that the chevy has a spin on oil filter for the ATF to trap those solids from the over 12 quarts of ATF. The Prius has so much less wear that they skipped any filter, so any solids stay in the 3.7 quarts of lubricant.

    http://www.chevrolet.com/assets/pdf/en/overview/2011_Silverado_HD_Catalog_FINAL.pdf
     
  19. tumbleweed

    tumbleweed Senior Member

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    Here is the analysis from my gen3 Prius transaxle after approximately 20K miles. I will have it analyzed again after the next change, probably this summer. I will have 30K miles on the fluid and 50K on the car when I do the next change, if it comes out OK I will change every 50-60K after that.
     

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  20. gobux

    gobux Junior Member

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    I was just told my Prius doesn't have transmission fluid by my local Toyota Dealership.