Death Rattle... clean manifold & EGR, new plugs, no change

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Care, Maintenance & Troubleshooting' started by Nor'easter, Oct 13, 2021.

  1. rjparker

    rjparker Senior Member

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    What is wrong with getting a one hour diagnostic from a Master Tech at the dealer? It almost sounds like some assumed troubleshooting step was misinterpreted leading to a dead end. Now we are ready to pull the engine? I would spend a couple hundred with Toyota first. Often the answer is simple.
     
  2. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    I don't know how long it takes a torque damper to die of old age ... it just isn't something I hear of happening.

    I suspect any amount of increased oscillation shortens that time, whether codes are set or not.
     
  3. Nor'easter

    Nor'easter Member

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    That's a reasonable suggestion.
     
  4. jas8908

    jas8908 Member

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    The reason I wouldn’t bother is because they’ll just claim a standard excuse such as blown head gasket. They’ll replace the head gasket and claim well that was bad also when the engine exhibits the same problem.

    QUOTE="rjparker, post: 3197810, member: 41651"]What is wrong with getting a one hour diagnostic from a Master Tech at the dealer? It almost sounds like some assumed troubleshooting step was misinterpreted leading to a dead end. Now we are ready to pull the engine? I would spend a couple hundred with Toyota first. Often the answer is simple.[/QUOTE]
     
  5. jzchen

    jzchen Senior Member

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    I would not tell the dealer what I think it is. I would tell them all the details of what is happening and what was done.

    Did you ever get a chance to ask your daughter for any info she may have on the noise/clues? (The daily driver, actual driver not the car, does tend to know the car the best).

    REVVL V+ 5G ?
     
  6. jzchen

    jzchen Senior Member

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    I do believe Toyota designs these dampers/mounts as replaceable without pulling the engine/transmission. I did see one that was accessible after dropping the front rear carrier (I forget what Toyota calls it) aka subframe. (That was a good many hours of work for me personally)...



    REVVL V+ 5G ?
     
  7. douglasjre

    douglasjre Active Member

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    Borrow 4 ign coils or buy new ones to test
     
  8. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    The damper lives in the same position as the clutch of an M/T or the torque converter of an A/T. I am not sure how you would replace it without separating the engine and transmission, unless you've got Scotty to work your transporter.
     
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  9. Nor'easter

    Nor'easter Member

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    FYI... you can't really see anything useful behind the black plastic cover on the bottom of the transaxle. With cover off, you are looking at this thing (see below), which is what the input damper bolts up to. If there is any debris in there, I didn't find any evidence, but there's not enough clearance to really investigate.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. jzchen

    jzchen Senior Member

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    Darn, while there is a way to get something to dematerialize, ie powerful explosive, we're having technical difficulties getting things to rematerialize!

    REVVL V+ 5G ?
     
  11. Nor'easter

    Nor'easter Member

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    Warmed up the engine in maintenance mode to 185 F coolant temp, then pulled the plugs. My compression #s are
    132
    135
    128
    130

    Engine was turned over in compression test mode under the hybrid menu, I had about 240 rpm during the test (book says 200 or better).

    The book says 199 std, 157 minimum. I'm inclined to wonder about procedural error -- it seems odd that the #s would be so far down -and- so close. Throttle was open. I checked the gauge against my shop air, and they agree at 120 psi.

    Could this be an intake timing issue? I haven't seen anywhere in techstream that I can monitor the variable valve timing, which seems really odd (did I just miss it?).

    I stuck the endoscope down the holes... hmmmmm... see below.

    I have 120 psi shop air going into #1 right now (I don't have a leak down tester, I just took the check valve out of the pigtail for the compression tester). I can hear a small amount of leakage at the oil filler (I think normal), nothing at intake, nothing at exhaust, no leakage into coolant is evident. But darn it, the piston top at #1 doesn't look dry. There's no liquid evident, but it doesn't look especially dry compared to #4 for instance.

    Comments invited.

    This is #1.
    upload_2021-10-24_13-28-47.jpeg

    This is #4
    upload_2021-10-24_13-29-30.jpeg
     
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  12. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sand Pounder

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    Yeah it's not a big difference. At first glance I was thinking it could be exposure variation, but # 1 does seem to have more glisten. Check again when it's sat longer?
     
  13. Nor'easter

    Nor'easter Member

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    Repeating to be certain...
    Plugs back in, run the car in ready mode, Drive, brake on, gas pedal down, charge the battery and warm up to 185 F.
    Plugs out, check compression on #1, 130 psi again, didn't bother repeating the others. Borescope pics on #1 and 4 again below. The "scuff marks" at piston center are from a wood dowel used to find TDC.

    Digging around on the interwebz looking for compression test experience doesn't turn up too much that's definitive. Sheesh. I guess I could buy a leakdown tester to increase my confidence further, but I think the engine is good.

    Comments invited.

    #1 looks better this time:
    upload_2021-10-24_15-53-7.jpeg

    #4...
    upload_2021-10-24_15-53-52.jpeg
     
  14. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sand Pounder

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    pretty subtle. :unsure: Plus, your compression readings look pretty tight.

    Do you have an air compressor? That's half the battle. I see leak down gauges for around $50 CDN and up on Amazon.



    Another thing worth noting: he barely pays attention to the valve set. The low needle on the right side gauge is a red flag for sure, but he's mainly just looking around and listening. That you can do with a compressor tester hose with the valve removed. Basically apply air pressure to a cylinder at TDC of compression stroke, and look/listen/feel for escaping air.

    One thing he doesn't really explain, is HOW he determines he's on compression stroke TDC. The second video goes into detail on that, around 8:30:

     
    #94 Mendel Leisk, Oct 24, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2021
  15. Nor'easter

    Nor'easter Member

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    The cheapest leakdown tester I'd consider or recommend is OTC 5609, about $73 at Dr Evil's.

    Eric's video will show you why the cheaper ones are kinda crummy. For one thing, they'll only let you use about 25 psi.

    (edit) Screw it, I need data. Ordered the OTC 5609.
     
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  16. mr_guy_mann

    mr_guy_mann Senior Member

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    What's your barometric reading? Most compression specs are for sea level- any increase in altitude results in proportional decrease in gauge readings. What are your fuel trim numbers while driving the car- both with and without misfire? If you do have some kind of misfire then it's going to have some affect on upstream and downstream sensor readings (and fuel trim ).

    I use a TDC "whistle" while barring the engine around. Air is forced out of the spark plug hole and through the whistle as the piston comes up on the compression stroke- making noise. You can also do it with your finger over the compression tester adapter hose but then you need a second person to turn the crankshaft.

    I then use a long screwdriver down the plug hole as a "TDC indicator". Watch the handle as you turn the crankshaft. Note about where the handle stops going up- then continue and note where you are sure it goes down. Turn the crankshaft back halfway between those two points and it should be close enough to TDC.

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
    #96 mr_guy_mann, Oct 24, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2021
  17. Nor'easter

    Nor'easter Member

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    I'm at 600'. No issue. Fuel trims are good, no systematic misfires have been detected by ECU, The (new) plugs that came out for this test with maybe 100 miles on them look identical and perfect.

    The next job is to figure out whether the apparent "wetness" in #1 seen previously was a red herring or a very early stage HG failure, and whether the 130 psi+/- compression numbers I got constitute a good engine or a bad engine.
     
  18. Nor'easter

    Nor'easter Member

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    Finally quit raining... Endoscoped #1 again (cold), looks clean and dry. The "wet" photo above turns out to be what you get when you position the camera (and its light source) too close to the piston.

    Warmed up the engine, then did a leak down with OTC 5609, and the engine is just ridiculously tight (and the TSM spec of 199 psi for compression is just plain wrong): 100/99+, 100/99+, 100/99, 100/99+. The only leakage that can be heard is a tiny hiss at the oil filler cap. Coolant reservoir cap was off for all of this, but obviously the HG is tight. <Big Relief!> Endoscoped all four again just because I could, everything still looks great. To refresh... the compression numbers were 132, 135, 128, 130.

    It sounds like I have a leak somewhere in the vicinity of the EGR (with engine running), this isn't constant. This is the next thing to run down. It sounds like a vacuum leak ("hssssss"). But I'm beat, it's dark, I've had enough of working with a headlamp and flashlight for tonight, it'll have to wait.
     
    #98 Nor'easter, Oct 27, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2021
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