Defeat in Iraq + NY Times Editorial

Saying that there has been 'NO discussion' is hyperbole.

The effects of withdrawal are considered on a daily basis
by anyone of at least average intelligence.

We stay: Many Iraqis die.
We go: Many Iraqis die.

efusco's right. There is no happy outcome.

Genocide will probably be the result, and all American
citizens will have more blood on their hands.

 

Shame all the possible problems of extricating yourself didn't occur to you before smashing up Iraq in the first place, eh? :lol:

Oddly enough, many of us could immediately visualise what a mess invasion would create, so we opposed it from the start.

Not to mention being firmly aware of your point 10, that a large part of it was just about securing oil supplies.

 

I agree 100% with the article.

This is why a country should NEVER rush to war based on loose pretenses. This is why when you go to war you make sure you have enough man power to win (fast).

All problems raised in the article was clearly articulated before the war by people oppsing the war and the approach. The fact that we had leadership that didn't listen should scare us. The fact that our military accepted the bad plans forced upon them should scare us. The fact that the people hired to be experts turned out the be hoaxes should scare us. Who has the know-how to run this war?

We are now in a no-win situation and it will get worse. We have been forced to become the weak horse by our inept and rushed actions. If we want to be anything else we will need to sacrifice A LOT more human life and resources. No one currently have the political power to do so.

No one can seriously have confidence in our current leadership so until we change them we're treading water in Iraq. No leader in the current running field for president (left or right) will have enough political power to "do the right thing" (meaning putting enough forces/resources on the ground).

So yeah I agree with the article. I have done so for a long time. I though when we went in to the war that our leaders or at least military understood the risks too. Clearly they did not or we would have used enough resources to being with.

I just don't see where we will get leaders qualified enough to deal with this problem.

 

You know, if all that rang true about Iran, I can't help but wonder: would Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has it in BAD for the country of Israel and I imagine that if he seized control in Iraq, that he would be so emboldened to launch a full-on assault against Israel.

Now, I'm not trying to make this a thread about anti-Sematism. That's not what this is about at all. I'm merely making the point that based on his hatred of Israel alone, we could be looking at not only the potential for a massive-scale disaster in Iraq; we could be looking at genocide in Israel.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jun 8 2007, 12:41 PM) [snapback]458082[/snapback]</div>

You don't have to be able to see into the future to have had a very good idea of what was going to happen before we went into Iraq. Knowing what's happened in the past would have told you pretty much what you needed to know. Before the war I asked dozens of people to name as many success stories as they could of a Western country invading an Arab one to "establish" their form of government. Zero responses. Change comes from within. From Gallipoli in WWI to the Soviets in Afghanistan western armies have had very little success in Asia.

I was steadfastly opposed to the Iraq invasion. In light of what we've done I think it would be an even bigger travesty for us to leave, as is. That said, I agree with you on the majority of predictions you've made for what will happen if we leave. With regards to #9, the majority of funding for Wahhabism has come from Saudi Arabia to the tune of an estimated 80 - 90 billion dollars. You know what they say about being careful of what you ask for.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jun 8 2007, 09:51 AM) [snapback]458005[/snapback]</div>

A good percentage of the things you list here are likely to happen no matter when we leave.

Except #2.

And inre #10: It depends on who you define the 'bad guys' to be.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ozyran @ Jun 8 2007, 02:46 PM) [snapback]458239[/snapback]</div>

Why should we care what happens to Israel? I don't get why some people think we are joined at the hip. Israel can take care of themselves.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jun 8 2007, 09:51 AM) [snapback]458005[/snapback]</div>

I suggest everyone watch the documentary "Letters Home From Vietnam". All the arguments you here now about why we can't leave Iraq are almost word for word the arguments why we couldn't leave Vietnam. Strangely enough, we aren't fighting the Soviets here on our own soil and I doubt if we leave Iraq, the terrorist will follow either. Watch the movie, the parallel is amazing.

 

Why hasnt Bush succeeded in training an Iraqi military to take over their own security ,as promised from day one of the invasion?
Its becoming obvious that the Republicans have realized that if they actually performed the training of security forces it would only enable a US withdrawal.
Thus they have no incentive to actually follow through with their promise.Recently it became quietly known that training a security force was no longer even a goal by the administration.
The possibility of disaster is all too real when we leave,but I can already see the strategy of the Republicans .
Hinder Iraq from taking over their own security but when disaster occurs , place the blame squarely on the Democrats for wanting to leave after only 4 years.
Bush lied about training an Iraq security force.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mojo @ Jun 11 2007, 04:57 PM) [snapback]459711[/snapback]</div>

There never was a plan to leave. That's why we are building 14 permanent bases there. Along this line read Baghdad year zero - http://www.harpers.org/archive/2004/09/0080197

We are going to lose 100 soldiers a month with thousands others maimed for life as we waste billions of more dollars, until the political pressure at home becomes too great and our troops are pulled out. In that time tens of thousands of Iraqi's will die. We are in the middle of a civil war as it stands now. Unless we institute a draft (not going to happen) we don't have the troops necessary to stop what's going to happen there, if we are in the country or not.

We've tried to engage in empire building and it has failed. Another important article - Can We End the American Empire Before It Ends Us? - http://alternet.org/story/51975/?page=1

We have to live with the guilt of those we killed. That means me, you, GWB, Rummy, Colin Powell, Kerry, Edwards, Clinton, Scooter, Cheney, Judith Miller, Thomas Friedman... We are all responsible.