1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Did I get a lemon?

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Care, Maintenance & Troubleshooting' started by bobzchemist, Sep 12, 2016.

  1. bobzchemist

    bobzchemist Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2016
    507
    342
    0
    Location:
    Kennesaw, Georgia, USA
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    So, here are the details:

    I bought a 2010 Prius IV on August 8th, with about 124, 000 miles on it. It passed a toyota dealership inspection (not the dealership I bought it from) with nothing apparently wrong with it. The interior, exterior, and engine compartment were extremely clean. The Toyota service records showed it to be well maintained until 60,000 miles, when they stopped completely. I assumed that the owners had serviced the car elsewhere - but maybe I'm wrong, and they did nothing.

    I thought I got it for about $1,000 - $1,500 under book value - but now I'm starting to think that I was badly ripped-off.

    I have since driven about 1,800 miles - and gone through a quart of oil. The oil had been freshly changed at the dealership before I bought it - it was almost crystal clear. Now it's light brown. The oil level looked unchanged at 1,000 miles, so I'm even more worried.

    The mileage has dropped from a best of 63.2 mpg to 45, 40 and now 34.2mpg. The pickup seems much more sluggish, and there's a noticeable hesitation/vibration/stumbling when the engine starts up from a stop light, especially before it has warmed up. The engine sounds much louder when accelerating than it did a month ago.

    The ac has started making a harsh buzzing noise and doesn't seem to cool as well as it did initially.

    My questions are:

    1) How badly screwed am I? Are these problems repairable at all? If they are, are we talking a few hundred in repair costs or thousands? What do the folks here think might be wrong?

    2) Can I trust the local dealership to give me an accurate diagnosis of what's wrong? Do you think that they'll try to sell me unnecessary repairs? Is there any way to verify that what they say is correct?

    3) Should I just try to sell this one before it breaks further and try to find one in better condition instead?

    Sorry for so many questions - I'm a bit upset and disappointed - I wanted so much for this car to work out for me.
     
  2. Raytheeagle

    Raytheeagle Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2016
    11,251
    15,482
    0
    Location:
    Bay Area, California
    Vehicle:
    2019 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    do you know if the spark plugs have been changed? What about PCV valve? Do you see any visible oil loss, or just loss on the dipstick? Has it thrown any codes on the dash?

    How long has it taken to you to put 1,800 miles on it? What type of driving are you doing (highway, in town, speeds achieved)? You get the idea :).

    What may have happened in the past was that a small oil loss may have gone unnoticed by the previous owner until the light flashed on the dash. This can lead to a dry oil sump and loss of lubrication. But that's jumping to a conclusion with incomplete info. Look forward to more info to help:). It can be frustrating, but take a breath ( and maybe consume a cold adult beverage).
     
    bisco likes this.
  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    109,293
    49,692
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    honestly, you sound a little paranoid, and over reacting. let's go through some of rays ^^^ questions and try to sort you out. don't panic!(y)
     
    Raytheeagle likes this.
  4. sttkailua

    sttkailua Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2016
    190
    150
    0
    Location:
    Hawaii
    Vehicle:
    2016 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    bob,

    There seems to be a lot of things happening that may or not be related to each other.
    Some others that do more self repair and maintenance can offer you more advice.
    First off, if the oil is a creamy, brown looking, you have a leak in the head gasket. Not good.
    Is your coolant level low, or lower than before?

    60+ mpg on a Gen. 3 is higher than average. Something is going on with drop in mpg, and rough
    engine performance. Computer issues? It seems something more than spark plugs.
    AC performance/noise is another issue separate from engine performance.

    I would bite the bullet, and take it in to a nearby Toyota dealer. Use Yelp, or ask
    Friends who have Toyotas or Prius, and ask where they go for service.

    good luck!

    stt
     
  5. liskipper

    liskipper Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2009
    373
    79
    9
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    I don't know what the consumer protection laws are like near you, but in NY there is a 30 day warranty and "lemon law" on used cars bought from a dealer. Did you run a Carfax? They also offer a warranty. Take it to a dealer ASAP. It might be as simple as the EGR valve recall.

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
  6. Toppcat

    Toppcat Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2015
    223
    69
    0
    Location:
    Northern California
    Vehicle:
    2015 Prius
    Model:
    Five
    Purchasing a used car without a good warranty is like gambling.
     
    #6 Toppcat, Sep 13, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2016
  7. JC91006

    JC91006 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2013
    16,493
    8,403
    0
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Vehicle:
    2008 Prius
    Model:
    II
    There is nothing wrong with your car.

    When the engine is cold, your soc might be low and you will get reduced power

    If you're driving on eco mode, your ac performance will be affected. The harsh buzzing noise is normal when you first turn on the ac, all my gen3 cars have this noise

    Engines do use oil as they age, burning oil won't do any harm, just replenish when needed

    You don't have a lemon. You just have to get used to the car.
     
    sukatoro likes this.
  8. RyanFlorida

    RyanFlorida Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2016
    36
    70
    0
    Location:
    Clermont, FL
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    II
    Bob,
    The problems you're having sound a lot like the problems I had with my 2010 Prius when I bought it with about 150K miles. GOOD NEWS: Its fixable!

    Things I have done and costs (I've bought all these on Amazon):
    New spark plugs: 4 x $8 each
    Mobil 1 Synthetic motor oil + WIX filter: $30
    Transmission fluid drain and refil: $40
    New 12V Battery: $150
    PCV Valve: $10
    Clean EGR Valve: FREE
    Engine Air filter: $15

    Total: $277

    I have a lot of experience working on cars but these tasks are relatively easy to do yourself. Check the forums here and they will guide you on how to perform each of these tasks to fix your problems!
    Good luck!
     
    bisco likes this.
  9. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    17,423
    10,254
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
  10. bobzchemist

    bobzchemist Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2016
    507
    342
    0
    Location:
    Kennesaw, Georgia, USA
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    - What fuel economy are you getting and how are you determining fuel economy? (trip computer or manual calculations)
    Trip computer
    - What fuel economy are you expecting and why?
    We were hoping for a 40 -50 mpg range. Computer says that the highest mpg was 63.
    - What are the approximate outside air temps?
    It's Atlanta in the summertime, so between 85 - 105F
    - How long are your trips?
    As short as 3 miles, as long as 45. Mostly 5 mile commuting trips
    How old is your 12v battery? What is the voltage reading of your 12v battery after sitting over night? (Method Here)
    I was told it was the original battery. Voltage reading was 10.8, if I remember correctly. I just bought a new one, but haven't installed it yet.
    Have you had your alignment checked? Any pulling or abnormal tire wear?
    No and no
    - How much of it is city vs. highway? Roughly what's the average speed in overall and and of each segment? Is there a lot of stop and go driving?
    Most of it is city driving, 20 - 30 mph average. Commute to work is about 5 miles each way.
    - What's the terrain like of your drives? (e.g. flat, gentle hills, steep hills, etc.)
    Gentle hills 50%, flat 50%.
    - What are your tire pressures?
    Haven't checked, but they look fully inflated
    - Is your oil overfilled? (i.e. above the full mark on the dipstick)
    It was when I got it, now it's a quart low
    - Make, model, year, engine and transmission of previous car? (e.g. 08 Honda Civic Si 2.0L 4 cylinder, manual transmission) What did you actually get on the same trips/commute? (Please give us actual numbers, not EPA ratings.)
    1998 Volvo V70, 5 cylinder non-turbo, automatic transmission, about 22 mpg
    - What region/state are you in? (if you haven't set your location)
    Kennesaw, GA, just north of Atlanta
    - How are you trying to drive (e.g. trying to stay in electric only?) and how hard are you braking?
    She doesn't seem to stay in electric mode over 8 - 10 mph, or for more than a few minutes. Trying to brake gently.
    - What modes are you using, if any? "normal", EV, power, eco?
    Normal
    - Are you "warming up" the ICE (internal combustion engine) by letting it idle after powering on?
    Not for more than 15 seconds or so
    - Are you driving using D or B mode?
    D mode
    - HVAC settings? Are you using the heater, AC, auto mode, etc.? If using auto, what temp is it set to?
    Using AC, 72F, Auto mode. It's been roasting hot outside, so AC is on constantly.
    - Are you using the factory tires and wheels? If not, please indicate tire make, model and size (e.g. Goodyear Assurance Fuel Max 185/65R15).
    Factory wheels, as far as I can tell, with factory hubcaps, but Yokohama Avid Ascend 195/65 R15 tires, look nearly new
    - If reporting a mileage drop, did anything significant change on your car (e.g. accident, hit a curb or big pothole throwing off alignment, oil change/other maintenance/repairs, changed tires or wheels, etc.) or your commute?
    No, nothing has changed
     
  11. bobzchemist

    bobzchemist Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2016
    507
    342
    0
    Location:
    Kennesaw, Georgia, USA
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    -Oil is brown/dirty but transparent, no moisture in it at all (I checked)

    -Coolant level is a bit low, but remains unchanged from when I got the car.

    -I'm going to try replacing the sparkplugs and the battery this weekend.
     
  12. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    109,293
    49,692
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    first mistake is watching the trip computer. start calculating at tank refills and average.

    best mpg's will come when you are not using heat or a/c.

    3-5 miles hurts mpg's, that's why you want an average. if making many short runs, drive to the furthest one, then work your way home.

    tyres always look fully inflated, pump them up to 38f/36r.

    a/c buzzing is standard, and effectiveness is probably your imagination.

    add oil to at least half way between f and e, and check it at every gas fill up. track the usage, so you can report quarts used per 1,000 miles.

    don't try to stay in electric. accelerate briskly (keeping up with traffic) and glide when possible, using no gas, ev or regen.

    put it in eco mode.

    if you don't know when the last service was, check/clean/change the air and cabin filters. the oil always goes from clear to brown, that's not an issue.

    as far as oil burning, sluggishness, hesitation, vibration, stumbling and engine noise, let's get everything else squared away before we tackle all that. good idea on new plugs. you may or may not have to address throttle body, mac, egr, pcv, etc., but let's get the rest done first.

    all the best!(y)
     
    #12 bisco, Sep 13, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2016
    sukatoro likes this.
  13. Montgomery

    Montgomery Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2015
    2,254
    2,240
    2
    Location:
    Orange County, CA
    Vehicle:
    2015 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Bob, please do what Ryan Florida suggests. It's cheap and may fix most of the issues.
     
  14. bobzchemist

    bobzchemist Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2016
    507
    342
    0
    Location:
    Kennesaw, Georgia, USA
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    It's entirely possible I'm over-reacting a bit - I have a tendency to do that. But...this is all coming on top of what at least feel like other deceptions by the dealer.

    The headlights have been gradually clouding, and are now moderately oxidized, but were fine the day I picked the car up - which is exactly what I'd expect to see if the oxidation had been covered up by a thick coat of wax. It's extremely unlikely that the headlights could look this bad in a month. The windshield wiper arms are showing the same symptoms.

    There's a medium-sized starburst chip on the windshield, that showed up right after a minor rock impact, which seemed too small to cause so much damage - but when I took the car to Safelite, they told me that the chip had already been repaired - badly - and that the small impact had only knocked away about half of the previous repair, so there was nothing that they could do to fix it.

    When I went to look at the battery, the spare tire area was unusually filthy, covered in leaves, animal fur, and dried mud was everywhere. It took me hours to get it clean.

    I keep finding little things wrong with the car, like rock chips, and dents, and stains, and radio/nav buttons that don't work, and other features that work intermittently, that I missed the first few times I looked over the car.

    Lastly, and least, but still pissing me off and adding to my feeling that this dealership is crooked, is that when I picked up the car, the carpet mats were missing, although they had clearly been in the car very recently.

    So, my frustration level has been building and building, and it feels like every day, something else goes wrong with the Prius, and it's gotten to the point where I'm really seriously considering selling it while I can still get back most of the money I paid for it.
     
  15. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    109,293
    49,692
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    who did you buy it from?

    animal fur is a concern, and you should check/clean the battery cooling fan to make sure it isn't clogged/dirty. carrying animals in the prius requires extra maintenance. birds and fish are okay, but shedding fur can be a problem.

    while you are working on it, put it up for sale, and if you get an acceptable offer, sell it and move on. but keep working until then.
     
  16. bobzchemist

    bobzchemist Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2016
    507
    342
    0
    Location:
    Kennesaw, Georgia, USA
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    Ray,

    Thanks for your helpful questions (and advice)

    Oil loss has only been seen on the dipstick. She doesn't seem to be leaking any oil, or any fluids at all.

    No codes at all have been seen, and no warning lights.

    As far as I know, neither the spark plugs nor the PCV valve have ever been changed, and probably not any of the fluids (except oil) either.

    It took a month to put 1,800 miles on the car, with a mix of highway and city driving, but probably more city than highway.
     
    Raytheeagle likes this.
  17. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    109,293
    49,692
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    that's over 21k a year, and above average.
     
  18. Raytheeagle

    Raytheeagle Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2016
    11,251
    15,482
    0
    Location:
    Bay Area, California
    Vehicle:
    2019 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    I would have guessed the highway was more than city given 1800 miles in a month, but good to know.

    A lot of good suggestions listed above of what to do and how to proceed. Are you a person who does DIY or will most of the above suggestions involve a trip to the dealer or shop?

    I deal with a small oil consumption issue ( a quart every 6500 miles), and have done some things to combat it. Some are still in progress;).

    I caught mine early before the dash light told me I had an issue. Since you have only had your Prius for 1800 miles, I will assume the Prius was sold on the premise of the oil consumption.

    Without knowing previous maintenance, when you bought the Prius, did they give you what maintenance they did prior to selling it to you( oil change, fluids, etc.)?

    All good pieces to your current Prius equation:).