Dirty Secret: Green Cars Automakers Won't Sell You

"that's cleaner than many hybrid systems"?

I should try to find hard numbers.

 

I highly doubt that you can only buy hybrids in certain states, I've seen license plates from more than 8 different states on various Prius cars. True they could have been bought in California, then put the plates on later, but I'm quite skeptical of this author's claims... mostly because they're saying the v6 accord hybrid is cleaner than most other hybrids.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MikeSF @ Sep 1 2007, 08:37 PM) [snapback]505668[/snapback]</div>

I think you may have misinterpreted this information...the vehicles in question are not hybrids, but conventional ICE-only vehicles that have had their emissions systems modified to be in compliance with the higher PZEV standard, this in order to comply with the emissions requirements for the states in question...

 

I'm not buying it. Why would it be illegal?

 

I call BS on the "cleaner than many hybrid systems" statement. While it is commendable that Honda has developed a V6 that adheres to PZEV, up from ULEV, in the last generation of V6s, that doesn't mean that is cleaner than any but the most weakest hybrid systems available.

The V6 PZEV Accord gets 19/29 MPG city/highway. That's better than previous generation V6s, but not great, and certainly won't give any hybrid a run for its money for MPG.

http://www.worldcarfans.com/2070821.007/pa...vealed-in-depth

As for the point about not being able to get these cars in any other states except for the CARB states, I think there is some truth to this.

It probably costs more for Honda to sell a PZEV than a ULEV, as it necessarily needs more complex emissions control equipment and longer warrantees , so it makes business sense for them to allocate these costly cars to states where it is mandated.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(LaughingMan @ Sep 1 2007, 11:19 PM) [snapback]505717[/snapback]</div>

Well, at least it doesn't appear that they are trying to make that claim...

Based on this quote from the MSN article, anyway...

"The PZEV cars don't get any better mileage than conventional versions."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sonny Jim @ Sep 2 2007, 02:54 AM) [snapback]505730[/snapback]</div>

Yeah... it seems like the point he's trying to make is simply that the emissions standard of PZEV, which is an achievement, but I wonder how much of one...

The Honda Accord Hybrid featured a LOT of the same technology going into these 2008 V6s. It was the first Accord to use VCM, Honda's cylinder deactivation feature. The 2006 and 2007 model HAHs were also V6s and also PZEV rated. The more I think about it, the more it seems like the HAH's PZEV rating had little to do with the hybrid electric components, and more to do with upgrades to the emissions control systems.

It seems like the new 2008 V6s are pretty much what the 2007 V6 HAHs were, minus the electric assist and battery... VCM and the hybrid's emissions control system are carried forward.

 

ABSOLUTELY TRUE . . . AND B.S. . . . ALL ROLLED INTO ONE!!!!!!!</span> <_<

The Prius you buy in California, or the other CARB rule following states, is the exact same Prius that is sold in all 50 states! BUT . . . it is true . . . you can not purchase a PZEV Prius in the non CARB states. That is because the dealers can not sell the car as a PZEV, because the state does not have the CARB'S PZEV standards on their books, and the car can not be registered as a PZEV. - So no, you can not purchase a PZEV, no matter what make or model, in the non CARB states.

The other difference - you don't get the PZEV warranty.

<span style="color:#009900">Additional Limited Warranty Information
* Its IMA battery pack comes with an 8-year/80,000-mile warranty, or a 10-year/150,000-mile warranty in CA,CT, MA, ME, NY or VT.* See your dealer for details.
http://automobiles.honda.com/accord-hybrid/warranty.aspx

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(LaughingMan @ Sep 2 2007, 02:12 AM) [snapback]505737[/snapback]</div>

The new Honda Accord V6 is 3.5L vs the HAH's old 3.0L V6. This new engine is more associated with
the one you can find in '07 Odyssey (3.5L V6 VCM, ring a bell?).

 

Ahhh, so it's not a matter of you are buying a "dirtier" car in other states, it's just other states don't recognize PZEV as far as meaning anything, and as a result can't advertise something as being "better" when the state doesn't recognize it. Emissions on the other hand are same across the board.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MikeSF @ Sep 2 2007, 10:01 AM) [snapback]505829[/snapback]</div>

Yes and No or it depends. For the Prius, you are right, it is just labeling.

For the Altima Hybrid you are incorrect because it will only be sold in CARB states.

The main point of the article is standard gasoline engines. Most manufacturers have CARB specific engines that they only sell in CARB states because they are more expensive to make. VW is one example and here are some of the 2006 engines available from VW:

Engine -------------------------CO---NMOG-----NOx----PM----Total (g/m)-----Standard----2008 EPA Mileage
2.5L Gas (GVWXV02.5257)--0.41--0.0033----0.000----N/A------0.4133--------T2 B2---------19/22/28
2.5L Gas (GVWXV02.5253)--1.26--0.0290----0.029----N/A------1.3034--------T2 B5---------19/22/28
1.9L TDI (GVWXV01.9238)--0.04--0.0194----0.310---0.046-----0.4154--------T2 B10--------30/33/37

The first 2.5L gasoline engine is the CARB engine. The second 2.5L gasoline engine is the Non-CARB engine. The CARB engine is not available in any non-CARB state, however, you can go to a CARB state to purchase the cleaner vehicle and bring it back to your state.

I've also included the poster child for "dirty" engines the TDI diesel. Notice that it is 3x cleaner than the Non-CARB gasoline engine in total emissions and gets 50% better fuel mileage but was pulled from the U.S. market for 2007 because the NOx emissions are too high.

 

Well, NOx is bad, right? And the TDI MPG seems lower than a Prius.

Why would I buy a "clean diesel"? Does it idle when stopped? Does it save my brake pads? Does is include a few standard items (starter, alternator, auto tranny) that need replacing/maintenance? Any extra urea fluids to cleanse exhaust?

To some the Prius seems a downright simple solution for all the above.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(finman @ Sep 4 2007, 09:03 AM) [snapback]506743[/snapback]</div>

You missed my point. The TDI is 3x cleaner than the gasoline engine available in my state. Yes NOx is bad. CO and NMOG are bad too. Yes, the Prius is cleaner but not everyone is going to buy a hybrid or a Toyota. Lots of people will go into a VW dealer and buy a gasoline Jetta when the could have bought a cleaner diesel Jetta that gets twice the fuel mileage.

BTW, that is a pre-emission after-treatment TDI. That is no catalytic converter, no particulate filter, no Urea injection. Just electronic injection and EGR, your basic 1993 technology. That is not the "Clean Diesel" that will be available in 2008 and meet emission standards in all 50 states.

Does it idle when stopped? Yes. However, the new BMW diesels have a idle stop feature so you can cross that little advantage off your list.
It also has a starter and alternator but my Prius has a generator and electric motor. The Prius also has an extra controller and battery pack. So the Prius has more parts to break.
Auto transaxle? NO, only a manual for me.
My 2003 TDI with 140K miles still has the original brake pads so that really isn't a concern for me either.
You can look at my signature for a real-world fuel economy comparison between the TDI and Prius.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(zqfmbg @ Sep 1 2007, 08:10 PM) [snapback]505646[/snapback]</div>

It's probably a true statement. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Accord is cleaner than a Tahoe hybrid, Vue hybrid, Silverado hybrid, diesel locomotive hybrids, etc.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(San_Carlos_Jeff @ Sep 4 2007, 02:54 PM) [snapback]506866[/snapback]</div>

And don't forget that some of these clean cars are fueled with natural gas. That makes a big difference, but you can't buy them in most locations (nor would you really want to, since the refueling infrastructure is lacking.)

Tom

 

If memory serves me, the only Honda hybrid produced to date that meets P-ZEV is the latest gen Civic. To find out if CA is getting a special model, just look at fueleconomy.gov. CARB pzev is about equivalent to fed tier 5 bin 3

I doubt a dealer can ship pzev across state lines, but I cannot imagine a problem with a private individual buying a car in a clean state and then 'moving', or even just registering in another state.

 

Yeah, well, what are you going to do? It's all a bit of marketing.

How in the world will Joe or Jill normal see an old black exhaust belching diesel and go out and buy one of the new clean diesels when his own eyes sees that it ain't ('clean diesel'), while hybrids are advertised as the be all end all "clean" solution (From a great Toyota ad I'd love to see again... "What what you do if the air were clean again..." fade to an HSD car).

It's simple perception...no one, well, many, are simply not going to do the research or look up the hard pollution numbers. I commend all who do, but it seems there are too few looking at the pollution side of the car equation.

When time permits, I might go and see and drive these new clean diesels, I want to flesh out all the low-pollution choices, armed with all the data and whatnot. Right now, the Prius is the winner (at least the past 3 years for me!)

Who knows how low the pollution can go...I hope there's room for all the solutions...I'm sold on HSD as a solution and maybe that means the marketing worked on me...