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Does the phenomena of life violate the laws of entropy?

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by burritos, Jul 4, 2007.

  1. burritos

    burritos Senior Member

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    Life in any form is a highly organized and ordered process. Though it may have come through random events, it in itself is not random. Does it fly in the face of the second law of thermodynamics? If there is so much order here on the earth(stemming from the energy from the sun) is there more randomness elsewhere related to us that would give us a normal net of entropy/randomness?
     
    #1 burritos, Jul 4, 2007
  2. Alric

    Alric New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Jul 4 2007, 12:00 PM) [snapback]472927[/snapback]</div>
    Yes. Entropy is increased greatly when the sun emits photons that all life uses. Rather than in terms of entropy think of how the energy flows from the sun to the earth and then organisms. Usable energy after all is the opposite of entropy.

    The small amount of order achieved by organisms is nothing compared to the entropy increases (energy given off) by the sun.

    [​IMG]

    Fig.2. Three Thermodynamic Subsystems Sun, Biosphere and Universe. The Biosphere extracts negative entropy in the process of exchanging"Hot" Photons (Black Body radiation at T= 5800 K) to "Cold" Photons (Black Body radiation at T=280 K). This process is responsible for the mysterious "Life Force" which seems to defy II Law of Thermodynamics.

    The complete explanation can be found here:

    http://www.digital-recordings.com/publ/publife.html#thesun
     
    #2 Alric, Jul 4, 2007
  3. burritos

    burritos Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alric @ Jul 4 2007, 12:09 PM) [snapback]472930[/snapback]</div>
    Interesting link. I can appreciate the fact the energy that drives life produces significantly more disorder/entropy/randomness than the order it produces. Yes I agree with that. There is likely enough energy in this universe to create anything the human mind could possiblly imagine. Here's a follow up query. Is possible to calculate the activation energy that was necessary to create life?

    [​IMG]

    The step from N,O,H,C atoms to life obviously didn't occur spontaneously. And it probably occurred in steps. Biochemical reactions in our body have high chemical reactions(ie. splitting O2 and combining H2 to make H2O) that have high activation energies. We have catalysts to overcome these energies(which can be mathematically determined). I wonder is there is some mathematical construct to determine the the total of all the activation energy(ies) that had to be apexed to create life?
     
    #3 burritos, Jul 4, 2007
  4. Alric

    Alric New Member

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    I don't know. Activation energy varies depending on the reaction. In reality its just a measure of how long it takes the reaction to occur on its own in comparison with a catalyst. In the vastness of time any chemical reaction related to biology can occur on its own.
     
    #4 Alric, Jul 4, 2007
  5. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alric @ 2007 July 4 11:09 AM) [snapback]472973[/snapback]</div>
    Is this another way of saying 'everything happens, eventually'?
     
    #5 hyo silver, Jul 7, 2007
  6. Godiva

    Godiva AmeriKan Citizen

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    #6 Godiva, Jul 7, 2007
  7. JackDodge

    JackDodge Gold Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Jul 4 2007, 01:00 PM) [snapback]472927[/snapback]</div>
    The "laws of entropy"? Entropy is the second law of thermodynamics.
    http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabe...#Thermodynamics
     
    #7 JackDodge, Jul 7, 2007
  8. Alric

    Alric New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hyo silver @ Jul 7 2007, 12:51 AM) [snapback]474502[/snapback]</div>
    Everything possible happens eventually. Biological chemical reactions are possible. Ergo...
     
    #8 Alric, Jul 7, 2007
  9. galaxee

    galaxee mostly benevolent

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    organisms do work against entropy on the inside in many instances. i can easily think of a dozen cases just in a single neuron. but in general their actions tend to work for it... i am, of course, thinking of how our cat knocked over the decorative tin that sat neatly on the coffee table until recently. and entropy increased by scattering the contents of the tin all over the place.

    entropy still wins in this case. :)
     
    #9 galaxee, Jul 8, 2007
  10. burritos

    burritos Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alric @ Jul 7 2007, 07:32 PM) [snapback]474832[/snapback]</div>
    Would the occurrence of life be considered as spontaneous? In other words, no intervening intellectual designer, but instead a random collection of energy+bumpimg atoms=creation of spontaneous organized intelligent beings?
     
    #10 burritos, Jul 8, 2007
  11. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ 2007 July 7 09:20 PM) [snapback]474935[/snapback]</div>
    Yeah, so life's temporary. Not that such inconsequential factoids should keep us from getting up in the morning. :)
     
    #11 hyo silver, Jul 8, 2007
  12. Alric

    Alric New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Jul 7 2007, 11:20 PM) [snapback]474935[/snapback]</div>
    What life, and complex devices do is a trick. A lot of entropy is increased elsewhere so that it can be reduced locally just a little. Think through any process that appears to increase order and you'll see many more times energy getting burned (heat, ultimate entropy). Think about how much plant matter needs to be consumed by us to live, or how much energy goes into printing a book or simply accelerate a car.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Jul 8 2007, 12:25 AM) [snapback]474963[/snapback]</div>
    That's right. And a whole bunch of time and the process of evolution by natural selection.
     
    #12 Alric, Jul 8, 2007
  13. patrickindallas

    patrickindallas Shire rat

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Jul 4 2007, 12:30 PM) [snapback]472946[/snapback]</div>
    In a word, yes.

    In an equation: (my electric bill)/(that stuff living in my fridge)


    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jul 7 2007, 12:56 AM) [snapback]474506[/snapback]</div>
    What was the question again?
     
    #13 patrickindallas, Jul 8, 2007
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