Downing Street memo

I signed the petition but I don't have any false hope. I go by feelings. I was in my 30's when news of the Watergate breakin was first reported. I felt almost immediately that this was going somewhere. Later, with Iran-Contra, I did not have that feeling even though I believe it was worse than Watergate in terms of harm and illegality. Even though I am appalled at the Downing Street memo(s) and the banal denials from the administration, I don't see it going anywhere, it's just a feeling. I believe there are a dozen or more potential Watergates in this administration but they are so adept at CYA that none of them will ever hurt them.

 

This is an example of what I meant when I said I believe there are dozens of potential Watergates in this Administration.

Hope you are right about everything.

 

Hate to break it to you guys., ain't nothing there....even Blair says bull...Bush did not lie or do anything that did not need to be done, with regards to our response to the 911 incident..or did you all forget that already. I served in Nam., and let me tell you the only quagmire is right here in the US just like it was back in my days. If you want a world ruled by the like of Bin Laden and Zarquawi and the beheading criminals of a hijacked faith, you need to keep doing just what you are doing. Maybe when the extremists kill tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of US citizens here in the US, then mayyyyybbe you all might get the message. These guys are in it and are not playing around, and neither should we.

 

Whoa! Sounds like you believe the attack on Iraq was to strike out against terrorism. When we attacked them, they had few if any terrorists. Now they have plenty. Good strategy, get the terrorists into Iraq so we can destroy their cities and infrastructure while we can kill the terrorists. Now we have up to 100,000 dead people. I wonder what percentage of them were terrorists. From what I can determine, the percentage is less than 20.

I don't blame you for feeling the way you do, especially with what you see about Viet Nam. You didn't have to fight in Viet Nam to see that Johnson lied to us to get us into the war, lied to us about how we were doing until it became clear that because of the conclaves, we would have to destroy the whole country and about all its people to win. I don't pretend to know where to draw the line on savagry, but notable US generals felt we drew it correctly in Viet Nam. Ben Laden is licking his chops about our policy, we are making his job easier.

 

Again it amazes me how you have answers for everything..the only thing we are not doing over there is kicking butt. We're trying to be PC and right and trying to satify you guys. But there will be no satisfaction with you guys, because your ultimate goal is politics and power, nothing else. Your side is afraid to offer a REAL LEFTIST point of view., ie surrender/leave/put our tail between our legs and let the UN and France have it. YOU offer no reasonable solutions, that can or will accomplish anything, much less any goals, because you want failure to prove your point and to get your man or woman in there, that is all I see. You would rather hurt this country then to let another viewpoint rule or move this country forward.

Iraq was long known for as a heavan for all Terrorists., Saddammm encouraged them, gave the support and money and had camps in his country, don;t tell me you don't know this YOU DO. As the the WMD's I still think he had a bunch, he just had a lot of time to plan his strategy, and they have moved what they needed to move. Saddam still thinks he's the President of Iraq, and thinks someday he'll return, THAT is why even today he is still under U.S. Custody instead of Iraq custody.

Don't know how Clark got his four stars, and "Koushiwill" too., but these are the only (2) prominent generals that think the way you refer to., and both have political ambitions. VIRTUALLY ALL Troops there and most ALL comon sense Americans know Bush is doing the right thing. It does not help when the MEDIA only reports tragedies and mishaps, lots of good things occur in Afgh. & Iraq, brave people risk their lives there. I only marvel at the depth the opositions wants to sink to, to derail American efforts, and this president. Seems like your kind and the media delight when tragedies occur, like this helicopter going down, that is what I did in Vietnam, do you know how difficult and harrowing that is ???

Much of what you said about Johnson can also be attributed to like minded thinking of that era. I visited the Presidential Library at the University of Texas, and saw and read what President Johnson tried to do. As much as I blamed this man, for not having a stronger sense, the depth of casualties, AND the fact that your kind made it hell for him, broke his heart, and he decided not to run again. The original intent and justifications for Vietnam dated back to JFK., and were not wrong. Did you not read or hear of the "Killing Fields"? Only Joan Baez honestly and bravely regretted the course the U.S. took there, and it was only after the Vietnamese invaded Cambodia, but the afternath was predicted correctly, if we abandoned that country, which we did, millions would die, and that is what took place is it not?

I remember my being prevented from talking to the Navy in High School, I remember my having to turn in dog tags because people were stealing them to demonstrate and throw the tags over the White House fences (along with medals), I remember having to change out of uniform in SF when I came home, I remember the Captain on the USS Saratoga playing to us the Kerry Testimony in the congress. How do you think U.S. forces feel out there in the field, when the enemy is able to broadcast the likes of Kennedy, Kerry and that other bungler from Ohio. WE are fighting and laying our lives on the line, and back home people like you praise our enemies and give them verbal ammunition. If I opposed this war, I would state I opposed it, and make no damaging remarks that our enemies can use against our soldiers.

I just think the Left (like Dean, Move On.org and the likes) should be ashamed of themselves. We're just not going to agree there, there are ways in this country to protest and register an opinion, but outright sabotaging our foreign policy and betraying our soldiers in battle is LOW......It breaks my heart to see it again, the quagmire is right here in the US., not there in Iraq or Afghanistan.

 

Well, we have now figured it out. You are patriotic, I am not. You want what's best for the US, I want to sink us into darkness and old night. You not only know what you think, you think you know what I think as well. Well, you haven't depicted what I think very well in your post above.

I learned a long time ago that balanced reasoning occurs when one side is comfortable with how the other side sets forth their position. What I see about your failings to do that is alarming to me. You win. I tuck my tail between my legs and run. I will not fight a fight that is not worth fighting with someone who appears to be, from what they say, not worth fighting with. But before I run let's get some things straight. You do not know what others think and have no right to categorize their thought. You do not have a corner on courage. Your view of patriotic contributions on the part of others is not the only view. I said in my post that I do not blame you for how you felt. However, you impute to "people like you" things that prove you know not from whence you speak. You apparently think I am perverted and that's cool with me. Your hostility to opposing positions is one reason why our country is currently polarized. I tried in my post to respect your opposing view. In your post, you showed only distain.

Happy soldiering.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Fredatgolf\";p=\"102728)</div>

Well, at least you're honest about it. Worst is trying to hide behind the label. This is a car thing anyway and not worth the effort, other then to say the same you say about me. I feel I fight for your rights and will never restrict them, at least in this country this does exist. In your world, you prefer something idealogic, but flawed, because oposition there is rewarded with the dark things you desire ...Let's just stick to the car, and it's wonderful technology. I do not relish the thought of thinking about WHY I risk my neck to allow the likes of you to destroy what we try to protect.

 

I'm confused. What exactly are you trying to protect? And how are fred and Kazu88 trying to destroy it?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Darwood\";p=\"102907)</div>

Here's some of what FRED says:

"Well, we have now figured it out. You are patriotic, I am not. You want what's best for the US, I want to sink us into darkness and old night."

that is my answer to you, he certainly has a right to his opinions, accordingly nowadays this appears to be a minority opinion. It is hard for us on the lines or if we'd been there..(got 2 boys over there now, and I served a long time) .. don't I have any rights ? Don't I have the right to think I AM protecting democracy and this country?? Is this foreign to your and the other 2's feelings ?

 

IALTMANN - Sounds like you need your last suck at the gas. Great - knock yourself out. People know whats going on politically and with the media. I don't want to seem to cryptic here but broad accusations seem almost always to be desperate grasps at dominance of some kind. Heck, you may be right in your blame calling.

Watts D. Hour

 

IALTMANN: You say, "In your world, you prefer something idealogic, but flawed, because oposition there is rewarded with the dark things you desire ...Let's just stick to the car, and it's wonderful technology. I do not relish the thought of thinking about WHY I risk my neck to allow the likes of you to destroy what we try to protect."

Do you not even recognize that as inflammatory language?

You say to Darwood, " don't I have any rights ? Don't I have the right to think I AM protecting democracy and this country?? Is this foreign to your and the other 2's feelings?"

Of course you do. Where did you get any idea from me that you don't? I have been attacking your style much more than what you say. I have simply disagreed with what you say.

If you don't recognize that what you said in the first quote I mention above is inflammatory and is the kind of thing that polarizes, then we need go no farther, you are right, let's stick to the cars.

Prius04, where are you?

 

So your answer to my question is democracy?
Is not freedom of speech one of the main components of Democracy regardless if their opinion differs from your's?

Ever heard of sarcasm...
Did you really think Fred is wishing a darkness to fall over America?
We all appreciate that you have fought for this country, but this does not mean they have to agree with you, or that any of us are right or wrong.

 

YOU are right about that..the Media that is people do know...ie last elections..that is what democracy is about. That is how you change the system...most americans can express views and VOTE., then accept a will of the majority, and wait until another vote occurs. That is the power, not the destructive and divisive attacks both sides do now, I see more from the LEFT, and of course the other side says the RIGHT does it. I don't however like activities that OPENLY sabotage foreign policy and endanger young men and women in the military. It happened to me, and I sure did not like it, these young people have just as much the right to exist and express their views, much less VOTE, so NO ONE should be dominant, but the will of the MAJORITY should be repected when it comes to something like this. EVEN recent polls despite the negatives, indicate regardless, that most Americans would not want the U.S. abandoning this current effort. and PS Bush lies, Downing Street memos (already discredited), and the likes LACKING FACTUAL BASIS, are those not "broad accusations",how about GITMO...HOW about Newsweek and the Koran, CBS and Dan Rather etc...and to quote you :"Heck, you may be right in your blame calling. "

 

People know about (alleged) widespread election fraud.

 

OK, OK, so it's not Fred that's trying to kill Democracy and America now, it's the media. I get it.

 

To stop terrrorism, stop BEING a terrorist.

 

Denial is not just a river in Egypt.