E85 - 5 million cars on the road now

Question is, is the Prius sold in Brazil, and if so what are the
differences that make it flex-fuel? It would be nice to be able
to do a retrofit in the US.
.
I really hope Toyota chooses the right path here, e.g. allowing
stateside folk to upgrade existing cars rather than just saying
"buy a new one"...
.
_H*

 

Another question is how many of those 5 million flex fuel cars are actually using E85 fuel?

 

We have sold hundreds and I would guess that less than 25 are actually using it. This will change over the next year as folks become aware of it and there are more places carrying E85.

 

I would hope so. I did a search on http://www.e85fuel.com. The closest E85 refueling station is located in National Energy Technology Lab, PA.

 

How hard is it to brew your own ethanol? Is it anywhere as easy as making your own biodiesel?

 

Probabaly not that hard to make some sort of E85 brew. I was told it is basically 'moonshine', so if that is true you would just need a still. I guess the prevalence of stills depends on your geography.

 

There are a couple of the stations that aren't too far out of my way. Hmmmm, maybe I can get that Silverado pickup truck after all. oh my god, what am I SAYING!?!? :lol:

 

as I am not an expert in this area maybe someone will find this interesting
http://www.c4aqe.org/Economics_of_Ethanol/patzek_ethanol.pdf

 

Would E10 or E15 be a better option for now and phase in E85 as cars that can use it get into more general use? As I recall nearly all cars (if not all) can run on E10 or E15.

 

Yep. I think right now E20 is the frontier for unmodified cars. Minnesota is working closely with automanufacturers to determine what needs to be done to make their E20 a statewide requirement by 2012.

It seems like getting everyone to E10 or E20 makes more sense than getting fewer folks (except fleet vehicles) to E85. E85 and biodiesel make a lot of sense for fleet vehicles with a centralized fueling infrastructure.

 

Is there a known upgrade path to be able to use anything from E0 to E85, or is that a next-car thing?

Be Prepared and all...

 

I highly recommend getting Toyota concurrence on burning anything other than gas in a Prius. The Prius engine has unique characteristics, such as: operates on the Atkinson cycle; 13:1 compression ratio; unequal compression and expansion ratios; starts and stops continuously; starts at 1000 rpm; starts on 2 cyclinders. There are probably many, many more that I'm not aware of. And what about the very low emission rating and what effect the other fuel may have on the cat. converter? Get the concurrence in writing!! And the engine will remain unique because Toyota has a hatch full of patents on the Prius.

 

I think you're missing the point. If GM is pumping out large quantities of vehicles that can run E85, they can also run E20, E10, E52, E43.5 and so on. The system adjusts automatically based on the fuel. It's simple and it's much better than limiting cars to E20.

 

Just wait until people see what kind of mileage they get in their giant SUV's with E85! There's so little energy in ethanol compared to gasoline. I predict single digit mileage for the big guys. Why doesn't GM make their cars E85? They've only done this for their large trucks. Very strange.

Nate

 

Isn't the Implala a car? The Monte Carlo? Sure they are. And they run E85.

 

The same reason that they're making the large trucks hybrids instead of the smaller vehicles: They make most of their money from large trucks and almost nothing on small cars.

 

Actually, you're missing my point. Of course flex fuel vehicles can run on E85... if it's available. I think that mixing more gasoline at a lower ratio of E10, E20, whatever would make more sense than concentrating the ethanol at few locations as E85. That makes the ethanol less convienent and limits the development of the infrastructure. I made the exception in the case of fleet vehicles because there you have a captive audience, so to speak, of vehicles that typically refuel at a central location.

I'm looking at it from the fuel distribution side, not the consumer side. From the consumer side I agree that the more flex-fuel vehicles the better. Is there a "flex-fuel premium"? My understanding was that to convert a modern car to E85 or what ever was mainly a software issue.

 

We probably need to shift to miles per unit of available energy rather than volume (maybe the equivalent gallon of gas so a gallon of E85 might rate as .75 gas gollons). This issue will become more common as other alternative fuels ramp up. But this will be expensive because we will need to improve math education.

 

I've been lurking for while, and have keep meaning to get in on the discussion. finally got to it.

Ethanol (and methanol) has a fairly high affinity for water. While preventing fuel lines from freezing up in the winter, it's a reason for the lower and variable energy content in E85. Getting pure anhydrous ethyl alcohol takes some extra steps that average moonshiner normally isn't prepped for. I think a standard whiskey still can produce 90% at best. If you did produce pure ethanol, chances are it wouldn't stay pure as the alcohol would absorb the moisture from the air.

So, unless you are willing to pump more water into your tank, brewing your own probably isn't practical for the home do-it-your-selfer.

I've heard, but haven't had a chance to confirm, that in addition to being unusable in unmodified engines, E85 can't be pumped over existing gasoline pipelines.