Electric cars vs. plug-in hybrids: Which gets better economy?

If one does not have a garage or an exterior electric outlet for a nightly recharging - an electric car is not a viable option.

50 years from now when gas/diesel will likely cost much more than it does now - battery based electric cars will be more popular.

 

If I were Catburt, the evil HR director, I would give my employees 'free' charging stations at work that always took 12 hours to charge any car. Free overtime!

 

You'd be surprised how many people think the Prius is an electric car.

 

To be fair, the issue is more around now owning the property the home is part of. Even without a garage, most single family homes (even possibly town homes) will have a exterior outlet somewhere. Even if they do not, getting an electrician there to install a new, regular outlet isn't that expensive, especially if you can afford the PHEV or BEV. At that point, even the L2 chargers aren't that expensive compared to the price of the vehicle - unless permit costs in ones area are ridiculous. The L2, 16 AMP version from Leviton was $1200 installed - which is fairly reasonable considering it comes with a 10 year warranty also.

 

Poorly written article. I've seen worse, but there are glaring errors. Such as defining EV, and then declaring the Volt an EV even though it doesn't match their own definition.

I would have preferred they had broken down the more gas efficient my miles driven. They touched on this, but it was muddy.

As for performance, those are design decisions, not limitations of electric motors vs gas engines.

 

Thanks, the article included one aspect I hadn't considered, the effect of cabin heat:

Source: Electric cars vs. plug-in hybrids: Which gets better economy?

The only part missing from this paragraph is the fuel consumption during this engine warm-up period. I've been seeing our 1.8L engine idle-warm up fuel consumption running 0.64-0.31 gal/hour (2.42-1.17 L/hr,) a fixed rate. At higher speeds, 40 mph (64 km/h,) the fuel efficiency is excellent. Stationary or significantly lower, not so good.

So recently, Robert Bruninga of Prius Technical Stuff shared this about Plug-in Prius:

Source: Yahoo! Groups

The engine warm-up penalty remains the biggest challenge. It is an area of 'low hanging fruit' where if Toyota changes the control laws to maximize EV during this all of the engine warm-up interval, a significant savings is potentially available. In fact, we can sample this in all Prius.

An ordinary Prius has about 45-50 seconds of this mode while the catalytic converter is warming up. During this time, modest acceleration just on EV can reach 40 mph and gives outstanding MPG in excess of 100 MPG. One has to use the engine RPM and/or fuel consumption per hour (aka., ScanGauge II) to stay in this engine-at-idle mode while accelerating on traction battery. It is, sad to say, not a default, control law available to uninformed drivers but could fit easily in "ECO" mode.

Bob Wilson

 

Electric Vehicles are not popular because:
1. They are enormously expensive - e.g. Tesla. Really. Who can afford a $100,000 car? That is why Fisker is going out of business.
2. They are extremely range limited - e.g. Nissan Leaf.
3. Many people do not have a convenient outlet to charge the car - such as those living in apartment complexes.
4. The cost of electricity is prohibitive - e.g. Hawaii.
5. Electric vehicles increase power plant pollution or force us to build more nuclear power plants.

Hybrid Cars are not as popular as Gas Cars because:
1. They cost a lot more than Gas Cars and the difference won't pay for itself in gas savings for a very long time. E.g. Ford Focus costs $16,000 and gets 39 MPG. Base Toyota Prius Liftback costs $24,000 and gets 50 MPG. This means the $8,000 cost difference gives you 73,000 miles of free driving for the Focus, or you have to drive the Toyota Prius for 94,000 miles before you break even.
2. Not fun, lack performance. Hybrid Cars are simply NOT as fun to drive as Gas Cars. Hybrid cars lack acceleration, maneuverability, steering feel, stopping capability, etc. They feel like heavy numb vehicles.
3. Unsafe. Because they don't have adequate performance, hybrid cars can be perceived as unsafe if you need to quickly accelerate and maneuver away from a road danger. Do you want your teenage or young adult kids to drive such a car? Firemen and ambulance drivers fear for the potential hazard that a leaking hybrid battery poses in an accident involving a hybrid.
4. Costly service. Consumers fear the service and maintenance costs of Hybrid cars over their 10+ year lifespan. Will consumers have to pay $10,000 to replace the Prius battery?
5. Cheap feeling. Hybrid Cars are expensive but cheaply made. The Prius, for example, has rattly doors that have no insulation and very thin window glass causing atrocious highway noise. New Hybrids like the Volkswagen Jetta Hybrid are luxury car quiet and will hopefully change people's minds.

50 years from now, when gas and diesel will cost more, we will switch to alternative energy fuels like alcohol-based fuels. By then, we will have improved on the effectiveness and efficiency of bacterial conversion of renewable sources of fuel like grains into fuels consumed by cars. With these renewable sources of energy and more efficient hybrid engines and improved manufacturing, we can have inexpensive cars with performance and luxury amenities.

Hybrids are the future. Electric cars are simply not.

One great test is to see what car taxi drivers and police departments would use for their work. Taxi drivers enormously favor hybrids. Police departments will stay with gas cars since the performance for hybrids or electrics is simply not there.

 

This Ford Focus ? EPA combined fuel economy is 31 mpg.
This Ford Focus Price ? $20,840 for hatchback and auto transmission, otherwise base package.

A non BS conservative calculation for fuel costs:
200k mile car lifetime:
4000 gallons of fuel for the Prius
6452 gallons of fuel for the Ford

Assume $3.60 a gallon, the Prius saves $8827 in fuel, but costs $3160 more to purchase.
How about reliability ? Prius is excellent, the Ford Focus well ... frankly sucks.




I leave the rest of this exercise in your capable hands.

 

These claims would have more credibility if they had some consistency and accuracy:

Use the same model electric for #1 and #2 or list the characteristics of both. For example, the Tesla has respectable range, ~250 miles, and the Leaf is affordable, ~$25,000.

#3 needs to be quantified by what percentage of the population lives in apartments. #4 does not compare and contrast gasoline vs electric costs per mile. #5 fails to report the pollution per mile, the CARB standard reporting for existing gas and diesel vehicles.

I can not find a "39 MPG" Ford Focus at Fuel Economy. Or is this just another "highway only" metric? Worse, the Ford Focus is a compact car and the Prius is list as a full-size. Unless of course you meant the "Prius c" but substituted the full-size Prius price instead.

Or the fun is when paying for the gas, an affordable car to operate, transportation vehicle.

They have half the fatal accident rate as the USA fleet. Given the "Not fun," perhaps a better option for young teenagers subject to abusing a "fun car." As for "hazard that a leaking hybrid battery", nonsense. I've cut the top off of one and nothing spills or leaks. You have to reach to touch it and even then, it is no worse than 12V battery acid.

If you're going to give a false cost about the battery replacement, why not call it $50,000 or more? This is pure hokum as rebuilt Prius batteries are in the $1,700-2,200 range.

You do realize you've contradicted yourself . . . Oh, it is just the Prius you don't like and you love the Jetta Hybrid.

Amazing contradiction between "Taxi" owners and all the rest of the hokum about why hybrids are not popular. As for Police Departments, how about Fire Departments and Road Construction and Garbage Collection. There are reasons why specialty vehicles are different from ordinary cars. There is a reason why a Police Department might not use a Ford Focus, a car offered as competition to the Prius.

Your posting would be more effective if:

• stop comparing apples and oranges - you've 'cherry picked' single aspects without any form of consistency
• accurate numbers - the "$10,000" battery replacement cost, might as well call it $50,000 . . . no $100,000

Bob Wilson

 

What a poorly reasoned argument. You take extremes, out of context to show that a general class of vehicles don't work.

I can't, which is why I will buy the less expensive $70k to $80k Teslas.
But to answer your question, the same people that today buy $70k to $100k Mercedes, BMWs, etc.

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As long as the range meets your driving needs, then what does it matter?

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Good point, and this is a very good reason ALL people won't be driving EVs. However, it is certainly not a reason no one will buy one. Many classes of cars sell just fine with smaller markets than this.

Hmmmm, nice selective data point. I believe the highest rates in Hawaii is around 40c/kWh?
If an EV gets 3.5 miles per kWh that is about 12 cents a mile. At gas at $3.50/gallon, the average car costs about 13 cents/mile to drive. Edit--- for your example of Hawaii, cost per mile to drive an average gas burning vehicle is about 17cents/mile. A clear winner for the EV or PHEV.
So with the most expensive electricity, the average EV gets about the same cost for fuel as the average car. Yes, you can do much better with the best hybrid (Prius of course) or a PHEV but since so many people drive average cars, it seems to go against our electricity is to expensive.

Not really at this point, eventually they may. Most EVs are charged at night when there is abundant spare capacity. And even if we do need to build more power plants, there is no reason to single out Nukes. Could be coal, Nat gas, wind, solar, tidal, geothermal (Hawaii should have lots of that).

 

Time to Sunset Hawaii’s Solar Tax Credit : Greentech Media
Solar is less expensive than grid electricity. If you have a garage you can probably put up solar in Hawaii and charge your plug-in (phev or bev). Distances are short in Hawaii, which makes BEV + solar make a great deal of sense. I can't see how a Nissan leaf + solar is anywhere near as expensive as a prius + gasoline or camry plus gasoline. Its all about your choices.

How Many Miles Do Americans Drive Per Year?

I can't imagine range anxiety would be a factor there, more like island fever. It never gets cold, epa range projections are likely pessimistic for the state.

Alaska, now there is a state where plug-ins don't make sense because of cold and long distances.

 

Gasoline is more expensive in Hawaii than the 48 states ($4.20-$4.70/gallon for regular yesterday) which strengthens your argument.

 

Excellent point. I wasn't sure so figured I would err on the original arguments side.
With $4.40/gallon gas, that would give 17 cents/mile.
Post updated, thanks again.

 

Damn, James. I felt like I was reading script from Fox News.

 

Likely true, and I agree that the argument that new power plants will be required is a bit silly, particularly now that wind and solar are at price parity with coal.

HOWEVER, switching to grid electric in coal states compared to a Prius will increase pollution and CO2 today and for the near-term future.

 

I'll also disagree on the Hybrid #2 point, above... "(lack of)...maneuverability, steering feel, stopping capability, etc. They feel like heavy numb vehicles."

Mine sure has maneuverability, steering feel, and stops on a dime. IMO.

 

Remember, without solar and plug in, in Hawaii you are using oil to run your car and run your house. Plug-in + solar means you are using the sun to run your car and your house. While cheap electricity and bad sun might make solar a hard sell in Indiana, solar has a 5 year payback in Hawaii with the state and federal subsidies. That means plug in plus solar, means you pay for electricity for 5 years then its virtually free for the next 20. In Hawaii does anyone really expect gas prices to go down. All of it gets imported. When someone brings up hawaiis electrical power mix as a reason plug-ins won't work, they are really ignoring the big numbers.

 

I checked Honolulu with PVWatts. PV production is actually fairly poor for a fixed array set due south at optimal inclination -- about 1.5 kwh/watt*year. Even New Jersey is better LOL. I presume cloud cover is the culprit.

However, at 40 cents a kwh from the grid PV still is likely quite a bit cheaper so long as net metering is allowed but perhaps a longer payback than 5 years. I also would not be surprised if installation is more expensive than the mainland.

Addendum: A 2010 newspaper article from Honolulu said this:

This works out to break even in 8.5 years.

 

You own a 2008 prius, and you claim it has steering feel? How can that be? Toyotas have virtually none and the electric power steering gives you even less than a corolla. The test drivers in the mags have even complained that bmw and Porsche have lost some steering feel when they went to electric power steering. Lots of people buy Toyotas despite their lack of solid steering feel, but you can't tell me its good in the prius.

Maneuverability and stopping capability are fine, probably better than many cars out their. They do not act heavy, they do act numb. The best selling car (not light vehicle) is the camry, and it is numb but competent in just about every way. I can't see how numbness hurts hybrid sales. The two things are price and perception. These should be changing but not enough to get more than 8% market share by 2020, my guess is market share will rise to 5%-6%.

The hybrid Porsches, Ferraris, Bmws, and plug-in Tesla's and volts should alter the fake perception that hybrid and plug-in means bad handling or performance.