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Electric - Human Hybrid Bicycles

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by EricGo, Oct 15, 2006.

  1. EricGo

    EricGo New Member

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    This topic comes up periodically in PriusChat, but I'd like to hear everybody's most recent experiences and gossip.

    Most importantly, I am looking for a model that augments human effort, and not isolated dual powertrains that discourages pedalling.
     
  2. EricGo

    EricGo New Member

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  3. LMA

    LMA New Member

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    No personal experience with them, but my understanding is that the big drawback to an electric bike is that the things are *incredibly* heavy (the one I saw brought into my store's bike shop was at *least* 50 pounds) so you end up needing to use the motor on anything but the flattest, flattest surface because you're hauling so much extra weight.
     
  4. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    I also have no experience with these, but I imagine it would be harder to balance because of the added weight. Plus, the power would be limited by the amount of weight you are willing to carry. I suspect that, as LMA says, if you have enough power to do any real good, you would have to use it all the time because otherwise the weight would make it too difficult to pedal.

    Before hurting my knee, I had a mountain bike which I could ride about 20 miles before being exhausted. I ended up trading it in on a lightweight (but not exotic materials) bike, which I was immediately able to ride 50 or 60 miles, and that same season rode several 100-mile rides. My point is that simply getting a lighter bike with less rolling resistance is probably a better idea than adding the weight of a motor.

    On the other hand, the company you link to in your post mentions using their system on trikes. With the balance issue off the table, you could install significantly more capacity on a trike, consider the pedals as merely a small additional assist, and have a human-electric hybrid vehicle for short trips in good weather.

    I find it telling that their web site says nothing at all about the range of a bike or trike fitted with their system.
     
  5. EricGo

    EricGo New Member

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    Daniel, there is a table that shows range as functions of battery capacity and assist level.

    Heavier bikes tend to be outfitted with knobbier, wider tyres, which I suspect is the culprit behind LMA's experience, and not the extra weight of the system. One might be inclined to argue that since the electrical systems are put on heavier bikes with those kind of tyres, the end result is the same.

    And this might be true for the flat road cyclist hoping to ride in the 25 mph range or faster, but may not hold for the lower speed rider who just wants to 'flatten' out uphill rides -- like me.
     
  6. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    I've ridden several electric bicycles, but none that would cause me to give up any of my trusty steeds. The weight and the ridiculous speed limit of 30kmh are the killers for me. To paraphrase Scientific American from about 30 years ago: "A man on a bicycle is more efficient at turning energy into motion than any other machine or animal." Some people think electric bikes are great, and I'm not going to take that away from them, but the current modern bicycle is getting harder and harder to improve upon. If and when batteries are lightweight and powerful enough to replace the 'energy storage system' I already have, then sign me up. Another thirty years should do it - the technology will be that much better, and I'll be that much older and slower. :)
     
  7. EricGo

    EricGo New Member

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    hyo silver, thanks for chiming in.

    I was under the impression that the electric motor was throttled to 30 kph, not the bicycle. Am I mistaken ?

    Was the electric bike system effective as a hill 'flattener' ?
     
  8. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    Eric. The best one I've ridden, and I'm sorry, I've forgotten the brand, has a variable power assist that can either replace your power or augment it. On the 'boost' settings, my power was amplified a little or alot, as long as I kept pedalling, which was pretty neat. It also had a 'charge' feature that would detour some pedal power to the batteries. The few small hills I tried it on were quicker at first, but anything like a mountain pass will leave you with way too much dead weight that wants a free ride.

    I'm not certain about the bicycle/motor speed limit issue. I could tell the officer I wasn't really speeding because the motor was off, but I don't think it would do much good. :)
     
  9. vuapplepudding

    vuapplepudding New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ Oct 15 2006, 10:59 AM) [snapback]332994[/snapback]</div>
    EricGo,

    My electric bike encourages me to get out and exercise. I get bored easily and this thing can get me to places I would never do on human power alone.

    Make sure that your city ordinance will allow electric bike on the trails or on the streets first otherwise it is useless. Some cities base it on the wattage.

    I have the 36 volt electric bike conversion kit. It works great in my town because I do not enjoy riding up the hilly terrain. With the 36 volt kit, I can use the battery to help me up those hills (while still pedaling a little to save the battery). Easily pulls 210 lbs person up a 20 degree grade at 5 mph with no assistance. It is hard on the motor and drains the battery more. You must have a good front fork and the space between the forks important so follow the installation instructions closely. I had to spread my forks a little. I checks for cracks on occasion.

    Then on flat surfaces I just ride like usual. I pull my son on a bike trailer and it is really helpful on the windy days. That little trailer has a ton of drag. By using the battery mainly for hills I can go for a long time.

    These batteries are heavy and awkward since the rear bike rack places the heavy batteries high on the bike. This makes balance a challenge. Not suggested for those that cannot mount a bike easily. NiMH batteries are an option but very expensive. The front wheel relatively heavy compared to my aluminum rims.

    My batteries charge in about 2 - 3 hours if fully discharged. I suggest that you do not fully discharge this since they are sealed lead acid. Deep cycles will shorten the life.

    Still I am happy with it since I am young and willing to use the technology to get myself out to exercise. Otherwise a normal bike just sits in the corner of the garage.

    As an alternative, I have considered buying a second bike with the battery mounted much lower to the ground. http://www.rmartinbikes.com/.
    For a little more money you do not have to retro-fit your current bike.
    I like the L780 since it has 48 volts and would ride more like a moped (tons of power not doubt about it). But the bike trails would not allow a moped looking bike on the trails so I might have to consider the L580. Notice the battery is mounted lower and more centered. This will make balancing much more manageable.
    They also have REGENERATIVE braking. PRIUS owners will love that. Not sure how efficient this would be though. I am sure you will not recover the same as the advanced PRIUS.

    Another alternate is the e-bike brand. They are nice but expensive. If you are willing to pay the price, this is the way I would go.

    I have also seen the military version of the e-bike that used NiMH batteries that are in the bike frame. Way cool and way fast. Too bad that they might not be legal on the streets or the bike trails. I think they are ok on the wilderness trails and mountains.

    Hope this helped!

    In one month traveled 5,000 miles on my new 2006 Silver PRIUS. Will need to travel the equivalent of 4 times around the world to get my Ph D. Hope my PRIUS will last that long. Still waiting for Toyota to make the Plug-In or a PRIUS-EV. I already told them I would put money down to be put on the waiting list.

    I guess why make something new when they are making a killing off the PRIUS.


    Here is the electric conversion kit I used.

    http://www.werelectrified.com/unibikekit.html
     
  10. EricGo

    EricGo New Member

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    Thanks very much, HWS !
     
  11. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    Obviously, this kind of thing will be good for some people. But during the very few years that I was bicycling, I found the solution to hills was an 18-speed gearset. Half-step plus granny was the configuration I had, and it worked very well. I eventually over-did it and developed a persistent tendinitus and had to quit bicycling. I'm the only person I know who can jog but not bicycle. But with low enough gears you can go up anything.
     
  12. darelldd

    darelldd Prius is our Gas Guzzler

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Oct 16 2006, 04:18 AM) [snapback]333348[/snapback]</div>
    In general, for the fit/uninjured population, I agree solidly!

    I've been on some pedal-assist jobbies before. One prototype by Honda a few years back. It had NO "let me stop pedaling" option and was a true "pedal assist" machine. The harder you pushed on the pedal, the more assist it would give. Crusing on the flat would use no battery. The problem, as many have stated, is that it was not a proper bike to enjoy when not using the power assist. Great novelty, and good for the folks who could not otherwise get out and ride... but sucks for bike riders. I'd rather spend $3k on a 16-pound street bike, than $1k on a semi-electric, heavy bicycle.

    My 02.
     
  13. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    Many years ago, when I was a ham radio operator, a ham friend of mine bought a Radio Shack Color Computer. It came with 8 K of RAM, and my friend, who was an electronics wiz, and whose day job was repairing microwave repeaters for AT&T, did a home-brew conversion to upgrade it to 16K, which he insisted was more memory than anyone could ever possibly make use of in a computer. The thing used an ordinary TV set for a monitor and an audio cassette deck for non-volatile memory.

    But my friend had a need to prove that the computer was not merely a toy, so he used it to balance his checkbook. And he told everyone that the computer was really useful because he could balance his checkbook with it.

    Every time he wrote a check, he would boot up the computer, load the program and data from the tape deck, type in his latest check, save the data to the tape deck, and feel like he was demonstrating the usefulness of the contraption.

    I balanced my checkbook in a fraction of the time, by writing the amounts in the little booklet, and doing the math every month.

    While I admit that for some folks the electric bike is probably a useful gizmo, I can't help but think that it's a lot like my friend and his souped-up Color Computer: the machine made an easy task difficult.

    WARNING: DIGRESSION:

    <div align="right">BTW, at the time I was fond of saying that I would not buy a computer unless they came out with one that could do something more useful than balance a checkbook, and do whatever it was faster or more easily than I could do it by hand. Not long after, that computer appeared: the Kaypro 2X, mainly designed as a word processor. Where the Color Computer could not display a normal letter-width line of type on the screen at one time, the Kaypro had a crisp, clear display that made writing letters fast and easy. Even after the IBM PC appeared, the Kaypro was a better machine for word processing, and it wasn't until the introduction of the Hercules graphics card that a PC could do decent word processing.</div>
     
  14. darelldd

    darelldd Prius is our Gas Guzzler

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Oct 28 2006, 07:58 PM) [snapback]340161[/snapback]</div>
    [/b][/quote]
    I love a good digression... and just got the oddest sensation while reading this. I had an eerily similar situation. It was my dad in my case though, who bought the first micro computer, and used it specifically to balance the checkbook. He also spent several days writing a program to that would show a clock on the screen. My fist computer was a Kaypro2 (CPM) with 8" floppies and no HD, of course.

    And one thing about this great digression is to look at where computers are now. And wonder where they would be if nobody did buy those first ones that sucked? I don't know if the same can be said of power-assisted bicycles, but I can certainly say it about hybrids and electric cars! I can't tell you how many times I've heard that so-and-so will buy an EV just as soon as they have 500 miles of range and cost less than a Yugo. If we all wait for that, it simply cannot happen.

    I never had a point here, so I won't pretend like I did. Carry on.
     
  15. jdenenberg

    jdenenberg EE Professor

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ Oct 15 2006, 11:59 AM) [snapback]332994[/snapback]</div>
    My son built his own and documented it in a detailled report (long). You can read it at:

    http://doctord.dyndns.org:8000/Scott/Hybri...ller_report.htm

    It will tell you a lot about electric assist bikes and their effectiveness.

    JeffD
     
  16. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Oct 28 2006, 08:10 PM) [snapback]340165[/snapback]</div>
    I don't think the Color Computer advanced the market for computers any. It was a toy, pure and simple. It could not do any of the tasks we want computers to do now. The Kaypro and its ilk were the ones that first provided real usefulness in the home, and then the fortuitous symbiosis of the Apple and Lotus 123. And the Kaypro certainly did not suck. It was a beautiful and sturdy machine that did a useful job and did it well.

    Similarly, I don't think the golf-cart-style electric cars that old folks drive around retirement communities, but which cannot go on public streets, advance the cause of electric cars. It took real cars to do that, like the EV-1 and the RAV4EV. And now the little independent companies like AC Propulsion, Tesla Motors, and Commuter Cars, getting into the act, but at scales so small that only the very rich can afford them.

    I predict that electric-assist bicycles will never be more than a novelty because they do not serve an especially useful purpose. Now, when a real motorcycle, or even a road-worthy motor scooter (Vespa-style) goes electric, that will be a useful machine.

    Consider: you can get gas-powered motor-assist bicycles, but you almost never see them, because they don't fill a real need. Too weak to be safe on the road, not powerful enough to go entirely under their own power, but too heavy to ride without using their motor. You either want a bike you can ride under your own power, or you want a motor bike that can go entirely under its own power. Power-assist is too small a niche. And I believe that the introduction of electric to replace gas, in a machine that has virtually no market, won't change much.

    Still, to those who find such a machine appealing, I wish you the best of luck finding the one that is right for you. I'd advise trying it out before buying it, though.