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Elon Musk’s much bigger SpaceX rocket - BFR

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by tochatihu, Mar 24, 2018.

  1. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    BFR with the ‘F’ variably defined. It will first fly in 2019 perhaps. It is designed to take 150 tons to or beyond earth orbit. Let us compare. Historic Saturn V could send almost 49 tons to moon. Future US’ Space Launch System (SLS) appears to work towards 45 tons beyond earth orbit. So is there a 3-fold higher distant capability for SpaceX? I do not understand that.

    Reusability after relanding is SpaceX’ big thing. I see no evidence of reusability for SLS.

    Can read expected BFR launch costs of USD$7 million from external sources, or 5 to 6 from Mr. Musk. While those are small (in that business) I wondered about fuel costs as a part of total, simply because I like to count things.

    BFR with use ‘Raptor’ engines (liquid oxygen + methane); different from ‘Merlin’ engines (liquid oxygen + kerosene) in current SpaceX firesticks. Raptor has been ground fired at low performance; full-power tests and vehicle integration remain for the future. All that is aside from my goal here, but part of learning. Anyway, a reason for switching to methane is that it can theoretically be produced on Mars

    Returning to costs, BFR would be (full) tanked with XX liquid oxygen and YY methane, both amounts having been reported. I simply looked for low prices for those two things. Together they come to about USD$200,000. Imagine that! Vast majority of launch costs are not fuel. Steely-eyed rocket-persons also need to be paid…

    Going in a different direction, the Boeing 777 commercial jet can carry itself (~160 tons) and ~60 tons of cargo/PAX halfway around earth, burning ~120 tons of fuel. That fuel, on the cheap, costs ~USD$90,000. It is also a fully recoverable, fully reusable vehicle, as passengers no doubt appreciate.

    With all above taken as accurate, BFR would move tons of stuff beyond earth orbit at lower fuel cost than this (long-legged) jet moves tons of stuff around earth, in dollars per ton. Imagine that!

    This might be seen as an unfair comparison, because rockets require much higher levels of technical $upport. Most importantly, rockets have all fuel and oxidizer right there when lighted. Jets obtain (steal) their oxidizer en route and thus are much less likely to explode during takeoff.

    Yet I can appreciate Musk developing reusable rockets; an effort that became rather successful with SpaceX’ smaller models. If they didn’t do it, I don’t know who might.

    How is any re-landed rocket component deemed safely reusable? do not know; this seems SpaceX’ task. It would need to become not secret before they put humans atop the stack.
     
  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    are we still buying our engines from russia?
     
  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Having spent most of my career supporting NASA computers and networks, I have nothing but great admiration for Elan Musk's achievements. This includes decades of reading NASA Tech, an in-house publication about NASA technical achievements that included:
    • Oxygen Methane engines - sad to say, the 'hydrogen lobby' won that fight.
    • Return to launch - the first efforts to land a rocket vertically.
    • After the Russians, manned flight.
    • To the moon and back.
    After the Saturn program shutdown, I was (and remain) a critic of the Shuttle even though it pioneered reusable. But the Shuttle was unaffordable and high risk (those d*mn wings.) SLS is trying to do it "cheap" by using the leftover shuttle inventory. Musk picked up what had already been pioneered and completed the integration and test ... GOOD ON HIM!

    There is a technical problem of bringing in an escape velocity vehicle back to an earth landing. Happily the Falcon Heavy is a perfect platform to map those technologies. I'll feel a lot better once we see a second stage Falcon return from orbit, 17000 mph vs 25000 mph.

    Bob Wilson
     
  4. I would buy a ticket just to say that I've been to outer space.

    Oh, and to experience lots of g's (or no g's, briefly!), and maybe get a cool look at the stars, if they put windows in the shuttle.