Enough of George W's War

"all the billions of $$$ wasted over there could have been used for something useful like national health ins., providing housing for the homeless, providing jobs for the unemployed, raising the minimum wage, and many other worthwhile things."

Of course you are right. But then the money would not have enriched Haliburtion, Kellog-Brown-Root and all of Bush's friends in the military industrial elite that runs this country. Would be nice to have our democracy back, wouldn't it?

 

I totally agree with almost everything you said, but I'll just take a little issue with this paragraph. I always found Michael Moore's argument of, "send your own children if you want to fight this war" a little bit unconvincing (I know Moore isn't the first or the only one to suggest this, but he's been the most visible). We have a military filled with people who have volunteered to defend our country. In my opinion, there have been many wars in the past that have been worth fighting; WWII comes to mind. I wouldn't want the members of our government to be swayed by personal/familial concerns when they were trying to decide whether we should try to stop someone like Hitler. Now, I think that if Congress weren't Bush's lap dog, there might have been some more serious questions before we got into this current military quagmire but, in general, I would like Congress to be able to decide whether a war is worth fighting without having to think about, "do I want my son/daughter to die?"

Additionally, I think it would be a mistake to pull out all of our troops immediately. That would almost certainly lead to a messy civil war (more so than what is going on already). Also, I think that this would probably create an enviornment that would breed more terrorists (I mean, who wouldn't hate us after what we've done to them). It's ironic, isn't it? Bush claimed that he was going into Iraq to continue the "war on terror" and he's just created a situation that's more friendly to terrorists.

 

I am so sick about the way Bush and his Repub supporters have dragged this conuntry down in just afew short years and all for their personal benefit at thecost of the many hard working 'regular' people. Their folly will cost future generations their hopes and dreams while the few who have benefitted will be set for unlimited generations to come. Lately, I have been visiting embassys of foreign nations in an effort to see what it takes to emmigrate. I simply cant stand it here any longer...the entitlement attitude. The short sightedness. The greed. It simply hurts too much to be part of a once great empire which is on a rapid decline. The difference between the attitude of the '50's vs the '00's is spectacular. Hope vs. dispair. I was so naive as to think empires slowly rise to greatness and slowly decline. Not so. This one is crashing down in only one generation. I don't see any "leaders" on the horizon, only rapists trying to 'get' theirs. I'm especially upset at the Dems for allowing this to go on without so much as a wimper. A pox on all their houses for forcing me to choose to either permanantly leave my homeland or take it up the a** time and again till I have nothing left to give.

 

You may want to consider Canada. There, tax money is actually spent on universal health care and low cost education instead of further enriching those who are already rich.

 

Before supporting a war, or a government that starts a war, there is thought process we should all go through. It would go something like this:

Am I willing to sacrifice my personal comfort in a meaningful way to help support this war? Example: Gas rationing, paying higher taxes to prevent the cost from being borne by our children, etc.

Am I willing to send my children to fight in this war?

Am I willing, if physically able, to fight in this war?

If physically unable, am I willing to donate my time and energy to support the war effort directly?

I contend that if the answer to even one of these is no, you shouldn't support a war or those who started it. Why? Because war is a very very serious issue, and it should not be used unless absolutely vital. WWII was absolutely vital, and the vast majority of citiens of this country willingly made those types of sacrifices. I think the war in Iraq a disgrace. It is tearing at the very fabric of this nation, because we are so torn over it. If a nation is torn over wherther or not a war is "worth it", then the answer is clear, it isn't worth it. The need for a worthwhile war will always be unwaveringly clear to the vast majority. Not just to one political party, or one special interest group, etc.

 

Another way of looking at war is to compare it to sentencing a criminal to the death penalty, or life in prioson. Our court system has it right. You don't sentence someone to the ultimate penalty if you can only convince 7 of 12 jurors, or 6 of 12 jurors. It takes 12 of 12. We should apply a similar test to starting a war. The need for it should be abundantly clear to virtually everyone. If you have to "spin" the reasons for going to war to try to "sell it", there is something seriously wrong. We should never, ever go to war under those circumstances.

 

I would go further, and say that war is always a stupid and primitive activity that never solves anything. It is mainly about making a very small group of men rich at the expense of the public. Didn't we learn anything at all from Vietnam? War is just a gross anachronism that we should have gotten over a long time ago. 9/11 was a tragic crime and the jury is still out on who was really behind it. The war in Iraq has nothing to do with that crime.

 

I had this long discussion typed out but after reading all the negitive posts I thought it was better to retract my statment ..

I guess we should convert the USA to a socialist nation(where every thing is paid for by the gov so we can be taken care of..) and it would make everyone happy... Just when that happens I'll move the tennessee into the mountains and have my assault rifes and live how I see fit. off of the land Screw the democratic & republican parties they all lie just to get into office anyway...

P.S. the homless dont want to work.... next time you see one tell him you will pay him 10.00 an hour to come do yard work at your house or would they rather stand there and look pitiful and let people come and hand them cash for looking sad & grubby. Its a choice most have made on thier own.... some of them clear 20k a year just with the hand outs because there will always be someone to give them money..

Our nation is the last of the superpowers, I say pull out of the war drop a cpl of nukes on the area and make a statement mess with us and we will clear out your country ...

Since everyone blaming bush for everything thats wrong in out country, how about
Welfare: "keep working millions depend on you", I do not have a problem giving welfare to those who deserve it.. I see people living in run down homes living off of the system and driving a new car ... thats being paid for by the system, thats a waste of yours & my money dont you think?

 

This is probably the only reason I thought twice about buying the Prius - it puts me in a crowd that has little or no reality testing and is so far left it borders on pure socialism.

"jury still out" on 9/11?? Holy Cow Batman - are you the Joker?? Did the Mossad do it or maybe the CIA?? Let me know what your current informed opinion is - anxiously waiting to read it.

War on Terror - no need trying to convince anyone here. Fact is the country voted on the war two years ago and voted in the affirmative to continue its current management on it. As far as I am concerned, majority rules still applies here.

It would have been nice for Clinton to be a little proactive so we did not get b****h smacked by a bunch of terrorists he could have idled. I wonder what their reason was for killing a bunch of my friends and neighbors and fellow citizens - and almost my daughter? I don't think we were in Iraq then - were we? You guys must think it was ok to watch people jump from a 1/4 mile high building to their deaths instead of being burned alive. Ever hear the sound of a human head impacting on the ground at that speed? I wonder if you care? I wonder what you would do to prevent that from happening again, if anything?

Ask the people in Madrid what they did to get blown to pieces? And while you are at it ask the people of London and other cities that have experienced terror what they did to deserve it. Ask some people from Tel Aviv or Jerusalem too. Or, is it ok for terror as long as it is directed at Israel?

I agree with another post here - pull out - and level the place. The terrorists don't mind killing innocent civilians - I guess that means we shouldn't either. Funny how they get so upset when we draw cartoons of Muhammed but it is ok for them to blow up sacred Mosques and destroy 1,000's of Korans!

If you agree with them so much, move there. Iran, North Korea, Cuba - they would love to have you. You could even be a human shield if you like. See how tolerant they would be of you.

The only threat to this representative democracy is from within. If your opinions don't differ much from what OBL would think or want - don't you think you should question them??

 

I don't want to convert the U.S. to socialist nor, as we seem to be on the road to, a facists nation. We are a Republic and, as long as free, open and civil discussion along with the electorial process is preserved, the Republic will survive Bush, Cheney, Rummy and all the other neo-cons.

What it won't survive is the lessening of peoples desire to listen, civilly discuss issues, exchange ideas, and compromise for the common good. It makes me sick to see both the right and the left villifying people because of their political position. It makes me even sicker when I talk to young people and they don't seem to be able to put any of the things that are going on in perspective, they take on the un-compromising position that is preached to them, and fail to question anything that is said by the government. This is what will bring our nation down. This is what will lead the U.S. electorate into making a decision that cannot be recovered from. This is what will lead to people setting on their hands and letting a government take away the rights and voice of the people. This is what leads to the press being muzzled because it dares to ask hard questions. All of this because people just don't want to be bothered. They set there, in their fortress homes, and pray "please God, just let me have my big screen TV, my monster SUV, my holiday in Aspen, my Internet connection (as long as it doesn't bring anything to me that is different from what I believe) and don't make me think about what is really happening."
:angry: And, when this happens, the people that know how to manipulate the system will steal h34r: your country away. No not steal, in fact you will gladly give it away to them and then later, when its too late to do anything about it, wonder what happened. It has happened in many countries before and it can happen here.

I'm 64 and have no children. Frankly, it makes very little difference to me what happens. But you people in your 20s and 30s and 40s better get up off your collective asses and start taking your country back. If not for yourself then for your children. It may take another Kent State to stir the public concience but until you decide your country is more important than some discomfort then not much will happen and this is the one trait that people who seize power depend on. We have too long let the spector of 9-11 dominate our political will and drain our resources. It happened, remember the people that are gone, but get on with living and stop giving up your life for some kind of revenge. Because revenge is what is driving our national direction and it is costing your future and the future of your children much too dearly.

 

"I agree with another post here - pull out - and level the place."

Can't do it, too addicted to oil to shoot the drug-dealer...

 

Can you please (please!) give me a reasonable explanation of what the war in Iraq has to do with 9/11 or any "war on terror"? It seems to me that there are a lot of people, particularly in the current administration, that would like us to believe that there is some connection between Iraq and the attack on the World Trade Center. This seems totally ludacris to me, as there has never been any evidence suggesting that this is true.

Regardless of your opinion on the Iraq war, can someone please explain to me what the connection is between 9/11 and the war in Iraq?

 

"This is what will lead the U.S. electorate into making a decision that cannot be recovered from."

Too late, has happened twice already...

 

Regarding 1, although I don't think this was directed at me, I'll offer my informed opninion. I think 9/11 was committed by Islamic extremists under the direction of Osama Bin Laden and his followers, who were aided and supported by the Taliban in Afghanistan. That is why, in my opinion, we correctly invaded Afghanistan and ousted the Taliban. 9/11 was not committed by Sadam Hussein. It was not committed by anyone from Iraq. It had nothing to do with Iraq. I don't know why we invaded Iraq, but I know we shouldn't have.

Regarding 2, of course none of thus think 9/11 was OK, don't be absurd. But attacking Iraq in retaliation for 9/11 is also absurd, and is not a proper response. What should we do about it? We should find the people responsible. We should try to disrupt their financial support, and the roots of their hatred for us. We should be vigilant in preventing future attacks. We should NOT attack countries that had nothing to do with it.

 

the fruits of brainwashing

 

You might be better served by cortically processing the questions that were posed above and providing responses that can be defended in the court of critical thinking rather than by giving glib responses and avoiding the topics totally.

If you can not provide answers to my questions, then it is you who is obviously "brainwashed". And I am sorry to have to copy your response to me because I think it unbecoming. It better to avoid responses like the one you provided above, unless that is where this debate ends from your perspective.

I await your reply to the points I posed.

 

There are very many people who doubt the official version of the events of 9/11. If you really want to keep an open mind I would refer you to a website - www.911truth.org and to a book - "The New Pearl Harbor" by David Ray Griffin. Read these and then give me your considered and informed response. I made the effort to do it - you can too.

 

I've been one step behind the curve all along, and I'm ashamed of it.

In the Dem primaries in '03-'04 I supported Dean's take on it---we shouldn't have invaded, and were doing more harm than good there vis-a-vis terrorism---but rejected Kucinich's (just leave) as "too radical", as did most others.

Pre-invasion, I reluctantly went along because I couldn't imagine our government would make all that WMD stuff up. I trusted that they knew more than they could tell, and that out intelligence was on top of it. I did think Bush acted suspiciously hastily in pushing, pushing, pushing---but, stupidly, overruled my gut.

I'm embarrassed by what my country under Bush has done. We will not live down the repercussions in my lifetime (I'm in my 60's). Who in the world will want to follow our lead in admiration of our PROFESSED ideals now? Oh, immigrants will still come, primarily to get their piece of pie. That's not the point.

Do we now owe it to the memories of 50,000+ dead Iraqi civilians to at least keep faith with THEM? It's the only reason I can think of to see it through to a more stable conclusion. But that, in itself, IS a powerful commitment, to me. We broke it. We bought it. But what we've apparently bought is nowhere near worth the sacrifice that has already been made. It's enough to make you cry.

Twice in 45 years we've made the two most unforgivable blunders a nation can make. Bush has more than spent his capital. Now what will we do if a situation comes along that REALLY requires drastic action? We could well be paralyzed into inaction.