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[environmental] impact of hybrid cars

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by usbseawolf2000, Jul 18, 2010.

  1. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    I came across this paper that contains many accurate and educational materials.

    However, there is obvious hidden agenda behind it. It focused too much on the battery and used the worse case scenario to calculate sulfer dioxide (SO2). She showed a lot of pictures to paint the environmental damage caused by nickel mining. There were no mention that 1% of those nickel mined goes to make HV battery packs. The amount of nickel used in TDI was not disclosed and she came to conclusion that "the sulfur dioxide (SO2) created from the manufacturing the batteries in the Prius is quite overwhelming".

    The cost calculation was the same flawed comparison with Prius and Corolla. A stripped Civic LX manual vs. loaded Civic hybrid automatic.

    HV battery replacement was indicated as $4,000 after 10 years warranty ended. Again, no mention of TDI transmission replacement cost (probably more than $4,000) after 5 years warranty.

    https://www.wpi.edu/Pubs/E-project/.../unrestricted/Imapct_of_Hybrid_Cars-Final.pdf
     
  2. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    I'm always amazed at peoples sudden environmental consciensness when it comes to hybrid batteries. They don't give a damn about the mobile phone they throw away every couple years, the lap top batteries that go the same way, the damage caused making their new lcd hdtv.

    Yet, mention you have a hybrid and you're responsible for the end of the world because of nikel mining. Perhaps someone with more brains than me could work out a comparison of the nikel used in a typical hybrids battery against other popular nikel uses? 1 hybrid = 26 laptop batteries for example or 1 chromed truck radiator grill = 3 hybrids and 1 chromed up Harley = 26 hybrids :eek:

    I'd really love to know.
     
  3. Spenumatsa

    Spenumatsa Junior Member

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    Hey Grumpy..
    You are spot on. The same smear campaign that has been going on against Hybrids.
     
  4. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

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    Don't overlook that this is written by an extremely young college student for a class thesis. This was done to get a grade, not reveal secrets to the world. As expected, it contains college type mistakes. First, look at the references. Way too many oversimplified internet blogs and popular post sites are used and hardly any hard core analysis and engineering sources. Another problem is the need for a "grand conclusions" to be shown. (Gotta show the prof the "insight" uncovered in my research!)

    Unfortunately, the young student does not realize that different manufacturers have widely differing environmental and supplier standards for car manufacturing, so lumping all "hybrids" into one category is the biggest mistake of all.
     
  5. chogan2

    chogan2 Senior Member

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    Typical vehicle starting battery is 50 pounds, half of which is lead. Diesel? Call it 75, half lead.

    Typical passenger car goes through three starting batteries in its lifetime.

    Total lead required for diesel passenger car batteries, lifetime, about 110 lbs.

    Recycled metal as fraction of new products produced:
    Lead: Over 50% , e.g., Lead Acid Battery Recycling

    Nickel: 51.6% USGS Circular 1196-Z: Nickel Recycling in the United States in 2004

    Lead smelter environmental disaster stories? Common. How about a few thousand poisoned children, from one smelter?

    Major Chinese Lead Smelter Admits Fault in Poisoning, Environmental Contamination

    My point is that if we are talking about batteries, a Prius uses less total metal, lifetime, than a diesel passenger car, by a wide margin. Lead smelting seems to be pretty toxic. If you're going to assess the damage from the Prius battery, it ought to be compared to the damage from the traditional vehicle's starting batteries.
     
  6. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    And the pm10's from a diesel - even a clean diesel. Then you have the higher levels of nox and the problems that causes. Then the Prius is still more economical than an automatic clean diesel of the same size so less fuel is burned. You also have noise issues with diesels and the fun and games involved with clogged exhaust particle filters.

    The other point the anti's go on about are the use of 'rare earths' in the Prius as if this is something new. Indeed there are rare earth magnets and the like, but existing petrol cars use rare earths in the catalytic converter and have done for decades and this never bothered anyone.

    Going back to my earlier question, I'd still be interested to see how much nickel in grammes or lbs the Prius battery contains and compare this with other nickel containing products as above.
     
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  7. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Uh, why do we carry coals to Newcastle?

    Look, we are well aware of the research flaws of this paper but has anyone reached out to:

    • Professor Eben C. Cobb
    • Laura Friedman
    We are the "Amen chorus" but if our thoughts and opinion are just within our own community, how do we lift the heavy weight of this propaganda?

    How about visiting the references and posting the facts and data? Ah but a sweet lie is so much easier than a hard truth. Then there is the new "LiON" battery plant that has been so heavily touted.

    What I'm suggesting is we can chat to ourselves but if we don't reach out, if we don't share with the ignorant, our silence is consent.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  8. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    sing it, brother!:rockon:
     
  9. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    But I always try (and often fail) to live by the words of one of your American Presidents - Abraham Lincoln "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than speak out and remove all doubt". :(
     
  10. timo27

    timo27 Member

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    I don't want to get into a 'bashing the student' fest here, but, honestly, I'm surprised the *professor* accepted some of these references. Popular Science? "How Stuff Works?" C'mon. I teach Environmental Science at an art college and one of the first things I teach is proper citation--primary vs. secondary sources, etc. PS almost borders on being a car magazine, and has always extolled the virtues of the TDi and disparaged the Prius. "How Stuff Works" is basically a tertiary source, similar to wikipedia only a lot less well vetted. In short, if one of my 200-level, non-science-major students submitted this paper, I'd send it back. The fact that it was accepted as a thesis at WPI in an engineering program speaks very poorly to the professor's oversight, imo.

    And Grumpy Cabbie is exactly right. The particulates spewed by cleaner diesels are always ignored in articles and papers like these. Don't get me wrong--the TDi has a lot going for it, but it emits more traditional pollutants (i.e., non CO2) than a modern, well-maintainned ICE-only car, let alone a hybrid. The fact that it meets US standards doesn't mean it is 'the best'.

    Alright, enough preaching to the choir, off to work...
    ~T
     
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  11. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    I just sent an email to the professor.

    Just a note... Laura is on the Dean's List (Class of 2011).
     
  12. Mike Dimmick

    Mike Dimmick Active Member

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    The mass of a Prius high-voltage battery is about 29kg (Plastic Case Prismatic Module | Primearth EV Energy Co., Ltd. - 28 times 1,040g). We don't know how much of that is case, how much electrolyte, and how much electrodes. Let's do some guesswork. This is based on my 15-year-old GCSE-level chemistry so it may be way off.

    The positive electrode is nickel(II) hydroxide (Ni(OH)2). It weighs 92.07g per mole. Nickel weighs 58.69g/mol. So the nickel content is 63.7%.

    The negative electrode is an alloy in proportions A-B5, where A is a rare earth metal (or mixture of) and B is nickel, cobalt, manganese and/or aluminium. Let's say it's nickel and that A is the lightest rare earth, lanthanum at 138.9 g/mol. An AB5 of those would weigh 138.9 + 5 x 58.69 = 432.5g/mol, so the nickel content is 67.9%.

    So, if our electrodes make up 90% of 29kg and they weigh the same as each other (guess - I believe the important point is the surface area, so the density becomes a factor and I can't find any information on it), each type of electrode comes to 13kg. The nickel content of the positive electrodes is 8.31kg and the negative electrodes is 8.86kg, for a total of 17.17kg.

    This figure is certainly wrong, but it may be somewhere in the ball-park. It could be on the high side if the 'A' metal in the negative electrode is one of the heavier lanthanides or, more likely, a mix of lanthanides as they're apparently quite difficult to separate. Also, it appears that a mix of nickel and cobalt adding up to five parts is usually used for the negative electrode, rather than purely five parts of nickel, which would reduce the nickel content.

    Incidentally on these calculations the 'rare' earth metal content is 4.19kg. ('Rare earth' metals are not rare - the ore in which they were originally found was rare in its vicinity and unfortunately the name has stuck.) Most estimates I've seen have this figure three to four times higher at 10-15kg per battery but I simply don't believe them - the electrodes would have to be the less common AB2 which is supposed to have poor life which we know isn't true, or the negative electrodes massively heavier than the positive. The lack of precision is also notable. However, treat it as a note of caution when using these figures.

    PEVE claim to have now produced 3 million batteries (Primearth EV Energy Co., Ltd.). They're not all Gen 2/3 Prius batteries, but if they were, it would be about 51,500 tonnes of nickel used. They took 18 months to go from 2 million (announced December 2008) to 3 million (June 2010), so perhaps 10,000 tonnes per year at the current rate.

    The US Geological Survey's Mineral Resources programme reports that total US consumption of nickel was 152,000 metric tonnes (1000kg) in 2009 - peak was in 2006 at 250,000 tonnes. They report that 63,500 tonnes was recovered from recycling in 2009 - 106,000 in 2006. 45% of all nickel consumed in the US goes into various forms of stainless steel. (http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/nickel/mcs-2010-nicke.pdf)

    Nickel content of stainless steel can vary from nothing up to 37% for 'austenitic' grades. The exact content depends on the properties you want for your steel. Austenitic steels make up 70% of overall production.
     
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