Ethanol Fuel

hycamguy07 · May 8, 2006

Several European auto makers are boosting efforts to build cars that run on alternative fuels such as ethanol, as oil prices continue to rise and stricter air quality legislation comes into effect.

Engines that run on ethanol require only a few modifications. They are considered one of the best short-term methods to keep motoring affordable.

Ethanol, an alcohol-based fuel, is produced by fermenting and distilling starch crops such as maize, barley and wheat.

Hybrid vehicles running with a combination of an electric motor and petrol engine will continue to gain a bigger market share, but caters mainly to a niche segment.
Car manufacturers DaimlerChrysler, Renault and Volkswagen have formed the alliance of Synthetic Fuels in Europe (ASFE) along with fuel producers Royal Dutch Shell and Sasol Chevron.

'Synthetic fuels can make a significant contribution in many of Europe's policy areas such as combating climate change, reducing energy consumption, diversifying energy supplies, ensuring security of energy supply and improving air quality,' said Thomas Weber of the DaimlerChrysler management board.

A number of synthetic fuel plants are being built and many others are in the planning stage in several European countries.

In Brazil, cars that run on alternative fuel are already being used on a mass scale.

According to Per Carstedt of the Bio Alcohol Fuel Foundation in Sweden, Brazil produces 15 billion litres of bio-ethanol annually. Sweden has a relatively good ethanol infrastructure.
31-03-06 Several European auto makers are boosting efforts to build cars that run on alternative fuels such as ethanol, as oil prices continue to rise and stricter air quality legislation comes into effect.
Engines that run on ethanol require only a few modifications. They are considered one of the best short-term methods to keep motoring affordable. Ethanol, an alcohol-based fuel, is produced by fermenting and distilling starch crops such as maize, barley and wheat.

Source: www.keralanext.com

James at the Alternative Energy Blog highlights the debate underway about the viability of ethanol as an alternative fuel source. Some are singing its praises, while others assert that ethanol use will actually increase energy consumption.

The stickiest question about ethanol is this: Does making alcohol from grain or plant waste really create any new energy?

The answer, of course, depends upon whom you ask. The ethanol lobby claims there's a 30 percent net gain in BTUs from ethanol made from corn. Other boosters, including Woolsey, claim there are huge energy gains (as much as 700 percent) to be had by making ethanol from grass.

But the ethanol critics have shown that the industry calculations are bogus. David Pimentel, a professor of ecology at Cornell University who has been studying grain alcohol for 20 years, and Tad Patzek, an engineering professor at the University of California, Berkeley, co-wrote a recent report that estimates that making ethanol from corn requires 29 percent more fossil energy than the ethanol fuel itself actually contains.

The two scientists calculated all the fuel inputs for ethanol productionâ€”from the diesel fuel for the tractor planting the corn, to the fertilizer put in the field, to the energy needed at the processing plantâ€”and found that ethanol is a net energy-loser.

They looked at ethanol from other biomass as well. The results?

Making ethanol from switch grass requires 50 percent more fossil energy than the ethanol yield
Wood biomass: 57 percent more
Sunflowers 118 percent more
Soybeans: 27 percent more

Classic Cadillac goes coast-to-coast on ethanol
A man just drove his 48 year old classic Cadillac across the US using only ethanol to fuel the car.

Christopher Lapp, the first person to drive cross-country fueled by ethanol, said he and his 48-year-old Cadillac are proof that alternative fuels work.

"To be able to do it with a classical car and new fuel, I thought it was interesting and unique," said Mr. Lapp, who is a nuclear and environmental consultant.

...The Cadillac Eldorado Biarritz convertible -- a classic automobile that he converted to run primarily on ethanol -- ran smoothly and saved money.

"Overall, it would have probably been more expensive to drive cross-country on gasoline rather than ethanol," he said. He started the trip on Memorial Day.

The article goes on to talk about the a provision in the energy bill currently being debated that would step up the requirements for using ethanol as an alternative fuel source.

On Capitol Hill, using ethanol as an alternative source of fuel has been one of the most contentious provisions in the energy bill.

...Doug Durante, executive director for Clean Fuels Development Coalition, said the bill requires 8 billion gallons of ethanol to replace 8 billion gallons of crude oil.

Officials at the American Coalition for Ethanol said that by increasing the amount of ethanol used in gasoline, the need for crude oil would drop by 2 billion gallons annually.

..."Ethanol is a cleaner-burning fuel," said Brian Jennings, executive vice president of the ethanol coalition. "Every gallon of ethanol you use displaces seven-tenths of a gallon of petroleum. Using ethanol is almost like removing 1 million cars from the road."

The world's first biogas train is set to roll in Sweden on Monday.

The vehicle is a converted old Fiat train whose diesel engines have been replaced by two Volvo gas engines, he said.

The engine was replaced "so that the train would be more environmentally friendly", since the combustion of biogas, like other biofuels, helps reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

Biogas is made up of shredded plant materials and animal waste, which are then mixed with water in a tank. Once the waste has decomposed, a gas is formed that can be stored and used as fuel.

Sweden's goal for 2005 is a 3% replacement of fossil fuels with biofuels and other renewable resources.

Following a European directive urging governments to promote biofuels and other renewable energy sources for transportation as replacements for petrol and diesel, Sweden has decided to take the bull by the horns.

"Sweden has a rather ambitious target for 2005. That is (a) 3.0 percent" replacement level, Lars Guldbrand, an energy expert at the environment ministry, told AFP.

That goal is the highest among European Union member states, most of which have set a target of around 2.0 percent, he said.

The world's first biogas train is set to roll in Sweden on Monday.

The vehicle is a converted old Fiat train whose diesel engines have been replaced by two Volvo gas engines, he said.

The engine was replaced "so that the train would be more environmentally friendly", since the combustion of biogas, like other biofuels, helps reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

Biogas is made up of shredded plant materials and animal waste, which are then mixed with water in a tank. Once the waste has decomposed, a gas is formed that can be stored and used as fuel.

Sweden's goal for 2005 is a 3% replacement of fossil fuels with biofuels and other renewable resources.

Following a European directive urging governments to promote biofuels and other renewable energy sources for transportation as replacements for petrol and diesel, Sweden has decided to take the bull by the horns.

"Sweden has a rather ambitious target for 2005. That is (a) 3.0 percent" replacement level, Lars Guldbrand, an energy expert at the environment ministry, told AFP.

That goal is the highest among European Union member states, most of which have set a target of around 2.0 percent, he said.

The world's first biogas train is set to roll in Sweden on Monday.

The vehicle is a converted old Fiat train whose diesel engines have been replaced by two Volvo gas engines, he said.

The engine was replaced "so that the train would be more environmentally friendly", since the combustion of biogas, like other biofuels, helps reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

Biogas is made up of shredded plant materials and animal waste, which are then mixed with water in a tank. Once the waste has decomposed, a gas is formed that can be stored and used as fuel.

Sweden's goal for 2005 is a 3% replacement of fossil fuels with biofuels and other renewable resources.

Following a European directive urging governments to promote biofuels and other renewable energy sources for transportation as replacements for petrol and diesel, Sweden has decided to take the bull by the horns.

"Sweden has a rather ambitious target for 2005. That is (a) 3.0 percent" replacement level, Lars Guldbrand, an energy expert at the environment ministry, told AFP.

That goal is the highest among European Union member states, most of which have set a target of around 2.0 percent, he said.

The world's first biogas train is set to roll in Sweden on Monday.

The vehicle is a converted old Fiat train whose diesel engines have been replaced by two Volvo gas engines, he said.

The engine was replaced "so that the train would be more environmentally friendly", since the combustion of biogas, like other biofuels, helps reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

Biogas is made up of shredded plant materials and animal waste, which are then mixed with water in a tank. Once the waste has decomposed, a gas is formed that can be stored and used as fuel.

Sweden's goal for 2005 is a 3% replacement of fossil fuels with biofuels and other renewable resources.

Following a European directive urging governments to promote biofuels and other renewable energy sources for transportation as replacements for petrol and diesel, Sweden has decided to take the bull by the horns.

"Sweden has a rather ambitious target for 2005. That is (a) 3.0 percent" replacement level, Lars Guldbrand, an energy expert at the environment ministry, told AFP.

That goal is the highest among European Union member states, most of which have set a target of around 2.0 percent, he said.

Man what a concept, ethanol instead of gasoline, That would definitly hurt big Oil unless they jumponto the band wagon, I wonder what a gallon of Ethanol would go for?...

What do you think?

tripp · May 8, 2006

David Pimetal has regularly been criticized for making bogus assumptions and using the most inefficient methods possible to arrive at his conclusions. Other berkeley study, released earlier this year claims that corn ethanol has a modest 15% reduction in GHG production over pure gasoline. They claim that celluose ethanal would have a much better energy balance and GHG reduction benefit. Here's a link to an article about the paper:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/01/uc_berkeley_stu.html

I don't know what the beef is. Gasoline has a negative energy balance too.

Brian K · May 8, 2006

Some of us remember the gas shortages of the early '70s and the soaring prices back then. I remember an article I read of a corn farmer in the midwest who couldn't grow corn and break even after figuring the cost of fuel. He already had a mess of it on the plants. What to do?

He decided to build a still, I don't remember how large it was, but it was a sizeable still, maybe 10 gal/hr. He turned that corn into mash, which he fermented. Then he distilled the ethanol by burning the corn plants for the fuel to boil the mash. The dregs he sold as cattle feed for more $ than the original corn was worth, and he still had the ethanol to run his tractor. He denatured the ethanol with 1 gal of gas per 55 gal drum of ethanol. True story as run in the original Mother Earth News.

There are all sorts of ways to screw up the economics of it and all sorts of ways to make it pay.

8AA · May 9, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ May 8 2006, 12:32 PM) [snapback]251500[/snapback]</div>

"Ethanol is a cleaner-burning fuel," said Brian Jennings, executive vice president of the ethanol coalition. "Every gallon of ethanol you use displaces seven-tenths of a gallon of petroleum. Using ethanol is almost like removing 1 million cars from the road."
[/b]
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I'm all for the development of ethanol as either a replacement or a supplement to petroleum. However, many people forget that a gallon of ethanol does not contain as much energy as a gallon of gasoline. The quote above sounds very positive, until you change the order of the comparison. What Mr. Jennings is saying is that whatever distance you normally can travel on a gallon of gasoline, will now take 1.4 gallons of ethanol. For example, if you're enjoying 50 MPG with gasoline, be prepared to only get 35 MPG on ethanol.

jayman · May 9, 2006

There is a big push in Manitoba to transition wheat farmers to producing ethanol, and the government is in the process of building a couple of plants. A Canadian oil company - Mohawk - sells ethanol blended fuel here at somewhat cheaper prices than "real" gasoline. It's cheaper due to the subsidies.

I've run Mohawk 90 in my Prius for almost 40,000km and noticed the following: seems to run ok, but fuel consumption is a bit higher, averaging around 5% in summer and 10% in winter, compared to Shell gasoline sold here.

It would be ideal if micro and mini cars ran on E85 or E100. I really don't see the point in a 12 MPG SUV or pickup running on E85 and getting only 6-8 MPG. I have yet to read a coherent technical brief outlining how we could repurpose enough farmland to grow ethanol sources - say sugar beets - without displacing food production.

qbee42 · May 9, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ May 8 2006, 12:32 PM) [snapback]251500[/snapback]</div>

Man what a concept, ethanol instead of gasoline, That would definitly hurt big Oil unless they jumponto the band wagon, I wonder what a gallon of Ethanol would go for?...
[/b]
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We burn ethanol in the stove on our boat. Current prices are $13.60 per gallon without taxes. Obviously it should be cheaper in bulk, although increased demand could offset that.

Tom

john1701a · May 9, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(8AA @ May 9 2006, 07:31 PM) [snapback]252466[/snapback]</div>

What Mr. Jennings is saying is that whatever distance you normally can travel on a gallon of gasoline, will now take 1.4 gallons of ethanol.[/b]
Click to expand...

Can you prove it?

Since ethanol contains 33% less energy than gas, I don't see how that quote can possibly be credible.

cei955 · May 10, 2006

The documentary I saw on Brazil was that they no longer import oil, they no longer have a balance of payments problem because they are importing oil.

The USA imports most of it's oil from the arab nations sending them billions of dollars, then spends billions of dollars fighting muslem terrorist, billions more for security at home and abroad, and billions more subsidizing our farmers to stay in business or just "not" plant anything on their fields to maintain food prices.

Then the USA spends billions of dollars on the interest of our national debt????

Why not stop buying oil from our enemies because we now use E85 or E100? The money we spend for our millions of cars fuel cost would go to our farmers instead of the muslim terrorist!!! We would reduce our deficit, therefore our interest payments.

We could reduce our military spending and use our remaining military to guard our borders and our congressmen from lobyist and special interest groups.

Let the people doing the studies take some of these items into account or WHAT HAPPENS IN THE USA WHEN THE ARAB NATIONS DECIDE TO "STOP" EXPORTING OIL TO THE USA!!!!

bruceha_2000 · May 10, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 9 2006, 08:42 PM) [snapback]252516[/snapback]</div>

Can you prove it?

Since ethanol contains 33% less energy than gas, I don't see how that quote can possibly be credible.
[/b]
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Approximately correct. Pulled from: http://zfacts.com/p/60.html]Zfacts.com

Fact 2. Appendix A of the US Dept. of Energyâ€™s Annual Energy Review tells us that the heat content of
Conventional Gasoline = 5.253 MBtu/Barrel
Fuel Ethanol = 3.539 MBtu/Barrel

Dividing gives: gasoline has 1.483 times more energy per gallon.
So 1.483 gallons of ethanol has the energy of 1 gallon of gas.
[/b]
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The other thing not mentioned when people hype ethatnol is that the price at the pump is NOT a legit price. Ethanol production is subsidized by the U.S. government (that means OUR taxes).

In Minnesota alone (Duluth News Tribune April 24, 2006)

But taxpayers are still being billed $26 million a year to subsidize the state's 11 privately owned ethanol plants, even though they're generating unprecedented profits.[/b]
Click to expand...

This doesn't necessarily mean we shouldn't look at Ethanol and other non petroleum based fuel sources, the dinosaurs can only become extinct twice and the second time is coming

john1701a · May 10, 2006

I've never seen an article contradict itself so much. That was interesting... and rather pointless, since vehicle effeciency is measured based on the resulting MPG not stored energy or heat. And since ethanol is always served as a blend rather than pure, the raw numbers don't work anyway.

As for subsidizing ethanol, how's that any different from the way we protect our oil interests?

dbermanmd · May 10, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cei955 @ May 10 2006, 05:41 AM) [snapback]252664[/snapback]</div>

Let the people doing the studies take some of these items into account or WHAT HAPPENS IN THE USA WHEN THE ARAB NATIONS DECIDE TO "STOP" EXPORTING OIL TO THE USA!!!!
[/b]
Click to expand...

They starve to death??
They can't finance their debt?
The house of saud can't afford its bodyguards to defend themselves from the 99% of saudi's they rule over?
They start having to educate their masses and develop a real employment based economy?
They stop being able financing development of nuclear technology and weapons?
They can't be the source of any ponzi schemes like food for oil?
They can't fund their terrorist brothers in arms who kill innocents?
They stop buying influence and become who they really are and what they were before the 1970's - nothings in the world?
We are forced to develop our own sources of fossil fuels? We increase our self-reliance? We start drilling off the coasts or in ANWAR?
We stop taxing a gallon of gasoline up the wazoo?
We blame those big bad oil companies - no, obviously it would be President Bush's fault - my bad.

Just some quick thoughts - and notice how I did not say we invade and take over their oil fields - something we should have done in Iraq if this war was for oil. But I guess if it was gas prices would be a lot lower.

andreaswin · May 10, 2006

alternatives to the usual pumpgas allways welcome,,, but I suspect ethanol fuel will have hard time if its supposed to take over for the enormous amount usual gasoline.....and its a bit tragic/ironic when u see so many people in the world die or suffer from starvation and at the same time "we" make Ethanol....yes yes i know it might be an unfair thing to say

anyway my opinion is that ethanol is (and should only be)just a step on the way to some real alternative non/minimum poluting cars/engine tech... because running a car on ethanol/ethanol mixes, dont make it enviromental friendly..still polutes,,, soooo many cars...

Andreas

YBLee · May 10, 2006

Cei955,

YOU ARE RIGHT ON THE MARK!

Charles Suitt · May 10, 2006

Errr..AHH... dbermanmd

Did you forget China's growing appetite for oil? Let us not harbor the feeling that we are indispensable.

daniel · May 10, 2006

The solution has been posting right here on Prius Chat for some time now: darelldd runs his other car on the sunlight that shines on his roof.

The Prius is a great stop-gap, and ethanol might be another (I still don't know which side to believe).

I suspect that if we removed all the subsidies from petroleum (especially the grand subsidy of allowing fossil-fuel-burners to spew their exhaust for free into the atmosphere that we all have to breath - shifting the cost over to treatment for pollution-caused cancer and other illnesses) then the economics would favor solar and wind power, and these would blossom on their own.

windstrings · May 11, 2006

I've wondered if the main reason Ethanol has been pushed is that there are alot of people who stand to make a profit and take some of the action away from coorporate oil.

Seems it takes more to make ethanol and is more expensive than gas...

Its ashamed that the real energy savers...ie: solar, wind, hydro are not pushed because there is little profit in it except for the user.

They say necessity if the mother if invention, but I'm starting to think its really greed.

john1701a · May 11, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 10 2006, 07:16 PM) [snapback]253186[/snapback]</div>

The Prius is a great stop-gap[/b]
Click to expand...

The terminology implies a dead-end filler product, rather than a natural step to a final solution. So clearly, that is inappropriate for Prius... since as time goes on, it will utilize electricity more and more while at the same time continue to grow more efficient. The fuels will increasingly come from clean & renewable sources. Isn't that the goal?

daniel · May 11, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 11 2006, 06:14 AM) [snapback]253407[/snapback]</div>

The terminology implies a dead-end filler product, rather than a natural step to a final solution. So clearly, that is inappropriate for Prius... since as time goes on, it will utilize electricity more and more while at the same time continue to grow more efficient. The fuels will increasingly come from clean & renewable sources. Isn't that the goal?
[/b]
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Perhaps I should have said the present generation of Prius is a stop-gap: 100% of energy from gasoline or E85, using the HSD system for a marked improvement in effeciency and cleanliness. In the long run I'd like to see a PHEV with a 50-mile range and normal driving characteristics (speed and acceleration) in EV mode, and using liquid fuels only for longer road trips. The present Prius could indeed be a natural step in this direction. Unfortunately, it may depend more on marketing decisions than on sound science. After all, our present leaders believe that the supply of petroleum is infinite, and regard scientists as agents of BeÃ«lzebub. (I've always liked that name. BeÃ«lzebub.)

It would not surprise me if gasoline-powered cars became too expensive for working class people to operate in 20 years.

john1701a · May 11, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 11 2006, 02:14 PM) [snapback]253647[/snapback]</div>

In the long run I'd like to see a PHEV with a 50-mile range[/b]
Click to expand...

The first white-paper I read about PHEVs is now 6 years old. It was a 300-page summary of a research project. There's quite a bit involved. So finally reaching that goal is far from a quick process.

Russ Yost · May 19, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 9 2006, 08:42 PM) [snapback]252516[/snapback]</div>

Can you prove it?

Since ethanol contains 33% less energy than gas, I don't see how that quote can possibly be credible.
[/b]
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1.4x(1-0.33) = 0.94.
A result of 1.00 would be exact. Off by only 5%.

Ethanol Fuel

hycamguy07 New Member

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