ethanol , how to prevent contamination ?

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by privilege, Sep 18, 2021.

  1. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

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    The offending links are identified as coming from "SkimWords"; pretty sure it is NOT at my end.
     
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  2. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

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    Have you considered RUST forming inside the tank ? Maybe a mostly uniform coating of "surface" rust ??

    Like I said, what you are showing is a HUGE amount of "contamination" and a piece to the puzzle is missing.
     
  3. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    G3 Priuses have tanks made from plastic.
    WHY is this a G3 issue again?

    If the API wants to perpetuate bad/miss information about alky-haul, the least people should consider would be to put it in FHOP, lest some reader out there be confused and think that E10 is or can cause a mechanical issue for G3 Priuses!

    LORD knows the Turd-gen has enough problems with their street cred just from real-world problems without having to import trouble from improperly maintained, NON Toyota vehicles. ;)
     
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  4. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

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    You are close but the REAL question is:
    Why was this posted here at all......since it is a question about a MOTORCYCLE.
    :rolleyes:
     
  5. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    This mess was at least moved into FHOP.

    Personally?
    I'd almost rather see it locked, but it at least serves as a "don't let this happen to you" lesson for all of the people who wonder about why some drivers would happily pay 15% MORE for gas that's missing an class of cleaner that's found in many gasoline ADDITIVES.......

    ....entertainment is where you find it. ;)

    E0 is legal in most states.
    If you're wondering if you'll get 15% more MPG or your car will last 250,000 miles with it......at least be honest enough to experiment on your car with your $$, rather than listen to internet blowhards, including me, try to tell you that there's a difference between 6 and half a dozen.

    I have 4 cars...2 motorcycles, one 1100# mower, three generators, three push mowers, a 15BHP chipper shredder, 2 gas pressure washers, and a host of smaller ICE powered swag with pull strings.

    No.
    I'm not a hoarder.....much.
    People give me stuff and I fix it. :)

    Just about every local gas station here sells E0.
    Sometimes....in some situations, E0 is warranted.
    MOSTLY?
    For anything manufactured after 1990 that is not laid up (not used) for long periods of time, it's bought by people who really do not know why they're buying it.
    AT LEAST 3 of the things I mentioned above I restored because their carbs were "gummed up" by people who put E0 in them thinking that it enabled them to store it for months without draining the carb first.
    (That's why they usually have a bolt in the bottom of the bowl.... ;) )

    In other words, E10 is sorta like the automotive equivalent of "nursery water."
    It doesn't hurt, but it's expensive, and if you're stupid (or unlucky) it's not going to help much either.


    KNOW WHY this is the case, and (IMHO) if somebody says that E10 is "bad" for a G3 Prius...or ANY Prius, or "bad fuel" in general then you should politely disregard any other automotive advice that they give you.

    Period.
    Full Stop.

    AGAIN....JMHO.
     
    #25 ETC(SS), Sep 20, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2021
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  6. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    According to the article @jzchen linked, the amount of water needed for phase separation to occur isn't going to get in the tank by absorption or condensation in a week. Assuming there isn't any water in the fuel to begin with. Between the refinery and the station pump, there is a lot of points where water can get into the fuel. So the fuel you bought may already have been high in dissolved water.

    Is this an older motorcycle? Pure gasoline will leave deposits in the tank over time, which generally aren't a problem, as lonas pure gas is still being used. Ethanol is a good cleaner though, and will loosen up any old build up. That could be the source of the gunk in the lower layer. That may also the cause for the orange color, but that can also be from rust. Of course, since the bike was filled at a station, we really can't say the contamination also came from there.

    Then you have contaminated water to deal with.

    Isopropanol will also work. I added some 91% rubbing alcohol to equipment at the start of the season to flush out any water that may have ended up in the carb bowl. Acetone is also hygroscopic, and a good solvent. Just watch the paint.:)

    If you can get E30, you won't have to worry about phase separation. Might not be good for the plastics in an older fuel system though
     
  7. burrito

    burrito Member

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    The other 9% is water, though. If you're trying to get rid of water, you'd be better off using 99% or 100%.
     
  8. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    HEET is....(methanol?) a good, inexpensive treatment (unlike $sefoam) and it has no water to begin with and the red-bottle stuff is widely available at like, $1.
    I bought some to mix with lanoline as an ad-hoc case lubricant for reloading purposes (only needed an ounce or so.)
     
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  9. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    One of the (several) problems with buying E0....besides finding a place where it's available, is that the 'bigs' don't generally sell it - at least around here.
    This is kind of surprising, given the profit margins....BUUUT that's big oil for you.
    People never stop to wonder why E85 is cheaper than E10 but E0 is more expensive..... :unsure:

    SO....(as our President is wont to say...when they let him speak...) "Here's the deal...."
    If E0 is generally sold by the mom and pop places, sometimes, SOME stations might get a little "forgetful" about which fuel goes into which tank. :eek:
    I've even seen gas stations, albeit very few, that dispense "real" gas out of the same hose that the E10 comes out of.


    After all.....they already get away with calling higher octane gas...."premium." :ROFLMAO:
     
  10. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Well, yeah, but 91% is the strongest rubbing alcohol you can get over the counter, and it is cheaper than the fuel additives that have dry isopropyl alcohol. More importantly, that little amount of water isn't going to keep the alcohol from mixing with the water in the fuel. Really, just about any bipolar solvent will work, thus acetone, as long as the water in them is in low amounts.

    Plus, I use it for cleaning wiper blades and other things.

    There is a trick to separating the water from isoproponal mixes. Add salt. A property of IPA is that it won't mix with salt solutions. Mix in table salt, it will dissolve into the water, and when the water is saturated with it, the salt water and excess salt drop out of solution with the IPA.

    IsoHEET is dry isoproponal. If only needed it for gas treatment, I'd use that. Or if

    Part of the reason real gas is expensive is because of the demand from people thinking a drop of ethanol will destroy their engines. The time I tried ethanol free was when it was just a little more than premium. Now the stations with pure gas are charging dollars more per gallon.

    Another part is environmental regulations require certain blends through out the nation, with stricter ones in areas of high population densities. I can't get E10 here, it is reformulated gasoline E10. Except for a station that is maybe an hour out of my way, my only source for pure gas is high octane race fuel sold by the jug and barrel from speed shops. Refineries need to fill that demand for stricter regulated fuel first.

    And, yes, ethanol fuel has some subsidies.

    The big oil companies don't supply E0 because they are held to stricter standards. During the switch to ULSD, 'mom&pop' refineries had longer times to meet the sulfur level requirement. Likewise, those small business refineries will have an easier time getting the waivers to not require ethanol blending under financial hardship reasons.
     
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  11. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    ^ Makes sense.....I forgot about all of the designer gasoline blends out there, or that E0 is "dirtier."
     
  12. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    It may be getting closer to you...

    Many Pennsylvania Wawa stores are including a lone E0 89 AKI pump during store renovations. They've already done a bunch in Lancaster & Berks counties, heard they were working on Lehigh now, not sure about Montgomery & points SE.

    And since they are giant Wawas, the prices are better than the mom & pops.
     
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  13. privilege

    privilege Member

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    ewww, that's ugly. I assumed it was AdSense... I guess everyone is trying to make a dime on links to goods and services.
     
  14. privilege

    privilege Member

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    it's a plastic tank.
     
  15. privilege

    privilege Member

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    1-7 can be replied to by saying

    1 the tank in question is plastic.
    2 see 1, and the first post
    3 your opinion is noted
    4 that's fine, petition an admin and I'm sure they'll be happy to move it, no biggie
    5 see 1 and 2
    6 meh
    7 ok, this is where you crossed from being only bring opinionated and non helpful to accusatory.

    firstly, I maintain my large and small engines, very very well.

    secondly, if you read the first post, you would see this is about contamination, and possible reasons for the contamination. if you'll read the first post , you'll see that I tried really hard to avoid politics, religion, bias, and conspiracy theories...

    all I'm looking for is possible methods of this kind of contamination forming in very short periods.
    if you can hop off the opinion box for a minute and think of how contamination can form in such short periods of time, from fuel sources hundreds of miles apart, I'm all ears. I really don't care about anything other than preventing this happening again in the future.

    thanks
     
  16. privilege

    privilege Member

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    the question is about fuel contamination.

    please try and stay in topic
     
  17. privilege

    privilege Member

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    so, you don't have any ideas of how contamination like this forms ?
     
  18. privilege

    privilege Member

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    first off, thanks for replying with real information I can use, instead of the recent useless opinions that went nowhere, this is very helpful !

    1 yup, I considered this, but with two stations hundreds of miles apart I thought it was unlikely.

    2 yes. when I buy something with an engine, I go through it. transmissions get cleaned with diesel, combustion chambers inspected and new pistons, cranks checked for run out, con rods checked for end play etc... and of course tanks are flushed/dried and carbs rejetted for altitude. consumables also get replaced, wheel bearings, chains, tubes tires etc, consider it a minor rehab.

    3 ohhhhh, I think I'm seeing something now...

    4 ohhh, ok, this makes sense. the tank is plastic, but Ethanol loosening up crap that was stuck in the nooks and crannies makes sense.

    the only problem with that idea is that this is about tankful #6. I do not know, it could have been a soaking time thing. very good point.

    5 ya that's the really aggravating part, not knowing. these two stations are used by me fairly frequently, now I'm hesitant to use them again, unless what you said in answer 4 was correct. I hope you were.

    6 are your saying to add the alcohol and then dump the first 10% of the tank, or just run it through the engine ?

    7 yup, that's another concern. I'm trying to stay period correct between the fuels/fluids used in 2009 vs what available today, to prevent problems with the plastics and fuel system, brake lines etc

    thanks again for giving me something to work with, very helpful

    :)
     
  19. privilege

    privilege Member

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    politics, big oil, blah.

    wanna get back to the contamination theories , please ?
     
  20. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

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    Several of us have been TRYING to tell you that this does NOT happen in a short time.......without some completely foreign substance being introduced to the mix........or a large amount of some normal automotive substance migrating to where it doesn't belong.

    Period. That's it. There is no magic involved.
    What you THINK is happening........is NOT.
    At least not in any way that you seem to think it is.

    My only remaining wild guess is:
    The plastic gas tank is being eaten away by some kind of solvent that shouldn't have been put in there.
    Also could be that the "tank" is not made to be a gas tank at all.

    Good luck.
    I think it will be a "head slapper" when you find out what the problem really IS.
    Might want to consider asking within the "motorcycle community" too.
     
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