EV are the worst polluters over time?

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by Diemaster, Apr 24, 2019.

  1. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Very well then - Include energy cost of manufacturing pressure vessels and of pressurization itself and have another important addition to what should not be, finally, a short list.

    Perhaps I'm off in a weird direction here. But every energy storage technology has obligatory energy costs. Of which some may not be able to avoid CO2 emission. I think it would be an interesting list.

    ==
    Four largest lithium (carbonate) producers are Australia, Chile, China, Argentina. Statista says.

    Making lithium batteries near brine mines would lower transportation costs. In my mind it's like trucking orange juice concentrate. Why haul all that water around?

    Largest and fastest growing lithium producer is Australia. They mine spudomene (mineral) and take it through several steps to Li carbonate or hydroxide. All other majors start with brine.

    This one has numbers :)

    duncanseddon.com/docs/pdf/lithium-and-lithium-batteries-forum-docs.pdf
     
    #41 tochatihu, Apr 26, 2019
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 27, 2019
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  2. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Why haul water when you can pump it?
    And it is concentrate, not orange juice like ethanol and hydrogen would be if we extended the analogy.
    The transportation emissions for the lithium slurry need to be compared to the costs of transporting the batteries, and the other raw materials needed to make them. Then there is the complications in how trade regulations and treaties treat the raw materials and finished goods.

    Everything has some type of cost. BEVs do have a higher carbon cost in manufacturing than ICE cars, but except for worse case, possibly not in existence electricity production, they have a lower operating cost. We could make carbon neutral hydrocarbons to fuel those ICE cars, but carbon isn't the only cost. I don't see how such could meet today's car fueling demands. it will cost more than using fossil fuels.

    That doesn't mean renewable hydrocarbons aren't worth pursuing. BEVs will still need lubricants, and BEVs won't work for all roles. If plug ins can get the demand for fossil fuels down low enough, we might be able to switch to renewable ones at a price point the public is willing to pay.
     
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  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I appreciate the lithium separation challenge. However, the decreasing prices suggests lithium production is becoming more affordable:

    Lithium Price Spotlight - Weekly price updates | Metal Bulletin


    [​IMG]

    Bob Wilson
     
  4. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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  5. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    This is all good data - for the next time Fud rears its ugly head. & it likely will.
    .
     
  6. Classic Car Guy

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    There is a matter of more shocking issues after its all said and done. Where do they dump (not recycle) all the dead batteries?
    google me this, google me that. The clock is ticking... (jeopardy music is on..) dun deeenn do roo roo roo oo rot....
     
  7. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I have a shovel to dig them up. Do you have a map?

    Bob Wilson
     
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  8. Classic Car Guy

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    It might take a bit more than shoveling... dun deeenn do roo roo roo oo rot.... tic. tac. tic tac...
     
  9. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Where are they currently dumping all those lead acid batteries that are in every car?
     
  10. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    When lithium batteries are done in cars they still have lots of uses in other ways.
    Building/house backup or even grid level backup.
    These uses don’t require as much capacity and are very happy with 70% capacity batteries.

    Although lithium batteries are not categorized as hazardous waste (like both Nickel and Lead batteries are), many recycling options also exist.
    Tesla is building a recycling procedures right into their Gigafactory. I expect other large manufacturers to do the same, if they haven’t already.
     
  11. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    it's the same place they bury all the plastic jugs and aluminum cans. Recycling is a fiction. Every troll knows that.

    .
     
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  12. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    And it's all swimming in a pool of used motor oil.
     
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  13. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    funny - how some OLD car owners worry about the 1%. The hybrid & plugin cars' lithium (when ever they're expired) in recyclable batteries ... yet GM sheds 100's of acres (via bankruptcy) poisoned by their toxins - not giving a $h|t about the tons of PCB's, lead, mercury, etc, they poured into the ground like so many toilet drains ....

    New GM Shirks Responsibility for Old Toxic Dumps and Mercury Disposal

    in the middle east, that's called, "straining out the flies - while swallowing the camels".
    :whistle:
    .
     
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  14. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    "...currently dumping all those lead acid batteries..."@49

    It is my understanding that these batteries are recycled in US at a rate very close to 100%. It is something of a poster child for recycling industry.

    However, very close to 100% still leaves a lot of toxic material wandering about. Combination of these two main ingredients is particularly bad if they go to surface water bodies.

    Outside of US and European countries, recycling rate is lower but such data are hard to find.
     
  15. dalcon95

    dalcon95 Senior Member

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    My power company says it is 90% carbon free. The 10% they are talking about is natural gas. Here is their breakdown of what they use in this picture. Electricity is cheaper than gasoline here in South Carolina. I pay about $0.13 per kwh. I usually pay about $14 a month to drive 900 miles. Less than half of my charging is at work which is free. Screenshot_20190308-121604_Gmail.jpeg

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
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  16. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    82% nuke likely hints the population of SC is small. So Cal has just one functioning reactor - & it generates just a small fraction of the state's electric power.
    Not saying any praise or damnation about nuke, - but in theory we can at least sequester CO2. Nuke waste? We are decades into figuring out a solution, yet the San Clemente decommissioned reactor still has tons of spent fuel rods just waiting to get washed inland - come some huge tidal wave. IE - most every Fuel stock has its issues.
    Equally ironic, people want to damn the source of electricity if it's running your plugin Toyota down the road, but the refrigerator? the 7kW central AC? garbage disposal? .... No big deal.

    .
     
    #56 hill, Apr 28, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2019
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  17. VFerdman

    VFerdman Senior Member

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    It's hard to beat nuke's energy density and carbon neutrality. Maybe Elon can take the nuclear waste to mars.
     
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  18. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    I hope not, Mars is a 'fresh start' for us after we finish screwing up this one.
     
  19. VFerdman

    VFerdman Senior Member

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    No, it's not. It's a horrible place for humans to be. We are meant to be here on this planet. If we ruin it, we're done and frankly, a good thing. No need to take our wasteful behavior to other worlds. I am all for Mars exploration, but to think humans will settle there is a total pipe dream.
     
  20. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    At some point, Mother Nature will ruin this planet regardless. So it will become move or die.

    Though that point should be a very long way off, absent sudden discovery of a giant asteroid on a collision course. So we must take care of this planet at least long enough to develop both the technology to leave, and an economy large enough to build the systems to leave. Both of those are also a very long way off.
     
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