1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Even Generals were opposed to war.

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by jared2, Apr 11, 2006.

  1. jared2

    jared2 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2005
    1,615
    1
    0
    Third Retired General Wants Rumsfeld Out
    Sign In to E-Mail This Print Save By THOM SHANKER
    Published: April 10, 2006
    WASHINGTON, April 9 — The three-star Marine Corps general who was the military's top operations officer before the invasion of Iraq expressed regret, in an essay published Sunday, that he did not more energetically question those who had ordered the nation to war. He also urged active-duty officers to speak out now if they had doubts about the war.

    Lt. Gen. Gregory Newbold, who retired in late 2002, also called for replacing Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and "many others unwilling to fundamentally change their approach." He is the third retired senior officer in recent weeks to demand that Mr. Rumsfeld step down.

    In the essay, in this week's issue of Time magazine, General Newbold wrote, "I now regret that I did not more openly challenge those who were determined to invade a country whose actions were peripheral to the real threat — Al Qaeda."
    The decision to invade Iraq, he wrote, "was done with a casualness and swagger that are the special province of those who have never had to execute these missions — or bury the results."
    Though some active-duty officers will say in private that they disagree with Mr. Rumsfeld's handling of Iraq, none have spoken out publicly. They attribute their silence to respect for civilian control of the military, as set in the Constitution — but some also say they know it would be professional suicide to speak up.

    "The officer corps is willing to sacrifice their lives for their country, but not their careers," said one combat veteran who says the Pentagon's civilian leadership made serious mistakes in Iraq, but has declined to voice his concerns for attribution.

    Many officers who served in Iraq also say privately that regardless of flawed war planning or early mistakes by civilian and military officers, the American public would hold the current officer corps responsible for failure in Iraq. These officers do not want to discuss doubts about the mission publicly now. General Newbold acknowledged these issues, saying he decided to go public only after "the encouragement of some still in positions of military leadership" and in order to "offer a challenge to those still in uniform."

    A leader's responsibility "is to give voice to those who can't — or don't have the opportunity to — speak," General Newbold wrote. "Enlisted members of the armed forces swear their oath to those appointed over them; an officer swears an oath not to a person but to the Constitution. The distinction is important."

    General Newbold served as director of operations of the Joint Chiefs of Staff from 2000 through the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks and the war in Afghanistan. He left military service in late 2002, as the Defense Department was deep into planning for the March 2003 invasion of Iraq.

    "I retired from the military four months before the invasion, in part because of my opposition to those who had used 9/11's tragedy to hijack our security policy," General Newbold wrote.

    His generation of officers thought it had learned from Vietnam that "we must never again stand by quietly while those ignorant of and casual about war lead us into another one and then mismanage the conduct of it," General Newbold wrote.
    The "consequence of the military's quiescence" in the current environment, he wrote, "was that a fundamentally flawed plan was executed for an invented war, while pursuing the real enemy, Al Qaeda, became a secondary effort."

    A senior Pentagon official on Mr. Rumsfeld's staff said Sunday that the Pentagon leadership provided ample opportunity for senior officers to voice concerns.

    "It is hard for the secretary and the rest of the policy leadership to understand the situation if they are not getting good, unvarnished advice from military commanders," the civilian official said.

    While General Newbold said he did not accept the rationale for invading Iraq, he wrote that "a precipitous withdrawal would be a mistake" because it would tell the nation's adversaries that "America can be defeated, and thus increase the chances of future conflicts."

    General Newbold's essay follows one on March 19, by another retired officer, Maj. Gen. Paul D. Eaton, who commanded the training of Iraqi security forces in the year after Baghdad fell. General Eaton wrote an Op-Ed article in The New York Times criticizing Mr. Rumsfeld's management of the war, adding, "President Bush should accept the offer to resign that Mr. Rumsfeld says he has tendered more than once."

    When asked about that essay, President Bush rejected the call to dismiss Mr. Rumsfeld, repeating as he often has that he was satisfied with Mr. Rumsfeld's performance.

    On April 2, Gen. Anthony C. Zinni, who previously led the military's Central Command, responsible for operations in the Middle East, said in a television interview that Mr. Rumsfeld, among others, should be held accountable for mistakes in Iraq and that he should step down.

    General Newbold has been quoted previously describing his concerns about Iraq planning, including in "Cobra II," a book by Michael R. Gordon, chief military correspondent for The New York Times, and Bernard E. Trainor, a retired Marine lieutenant general who is a former military correspondent for the newspaper. In the book General Newbold is described telling fellow officers that he considered the focus on Iraq to be a strategic blunder and a distraction from the real counterterror effort. He is also quoted as expressing concern about Mr. Rumsfeld's influence on war planning, in particular his emphasis on assigning fewer troops to the invasion
     
    #1 jared2, Apr 11, 2006
  2. Mystery Squid

    Mystery Squid Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2005
    2
    3
    0
    Yeah, ok, 3rd General, out of how many exactly?
     
    #2 Mystery Squid, Apr 11, 2006
  3. jared2

    jared2 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2005
    1,615
    1
    0
    Since you support the war, have you considered volunteering, or do you have "other priorities", like Cheney?
     
    #3 jared2, Apr 11, 2006
  4. Mystery Squid

    Mystery Squid Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2005
    2
    3
    0
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ Apr 11 2006, 10:28 AM) [snapback]237991[/snapback]</div>
    Since you don't support it, seem to be ardently opposed to it, why aren't you making the news like Cindy Sheehan?


    ...and in the interest of presenting fair and balanced information, how many Generals does Bush have?
     
    #4 Mystery Squid, Apr 11, 2006
  5. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2004
    14,487
    1,518
    0
    Location:
    Spokane, WA
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    No military officer likes it when his commanding officer (or the Commander in Chief) is a moron. However, the vast majority are so totally indoctrinated into the "obey without question" mentality that the military instills in its soldiers, that they would never dream of speaking out when their CO or CiF is a moron.
     
    #5 daniel, Apr 11, 2006
  6. MarinJohn

    MarinJohn Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2004
    3,945
    304
    0
     
    #6 MarinJohn, Apr 11, 2006
  7. Mystery Squid

    Mystery Squid Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2005
    2
    3
    0
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 11 2006, 11:29 AM) [snapback]238012[/snapback]</div>
    ...and this is somehow meant to negate the perspective that 3 out of X generals spoke up? :lol: We're talking about General/Commander in Chief level relationship here, NOT soldier/officer relationship. The: "vast majority are so totally indoctrinated into the "obey without question" mentaility", is obviously, a complete and utter opinion, based upon a standpoint of a "pacifist". If THAT isn't bias, I don't know what is!

    You all had your chance on November 7, 2004.....
     
    #7 Mystery Squid, Apr 11, 2006
  8. geologyrox

    geologyrox New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2005
    513
    0
    0
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Apr 11 2006, 11:50 AM) [snapback]238020[/snapback]</div>
    You know, I feel the same way. At the end of that day, around 10:00, when I did the math and gave up, I went to the ABC and got a bottle of Jim Beam, and then went to Ben'n'Jerry's for a couple of pints. The newspaper that asked "How could ##,###,### be so dumb?" really just said it all for me. I sometimes feel like these people don't deserve to have decent representation, and that's why we don't get it.

    EDIT: didn't intend to be so mean-spirited. In penance, I'm looking to see how many generals there are in the US armed forces. http://web1.whs.osd.mil/mmid/military/rg0602.pdf says that there are 442 Generals on staff with at least two stars. If you want to count the Brigadier Generals, there are 881.
     
    #8 geologyrox, Apr 11, 2006
  9. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    13,439
    641
    0
    Location:
    Winnipeg Manitoba
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    I sizeable minority of the potential voting public has plain given up, due to the lackluster and hard-to-differentiate choices. What was the voter turnout? Only 64%. Instead of looking at the needs and wants of those 64%, we had better quickly figure out why 36% didn't bother at all.
     
    #9 jayman, Apr 11, 2006
  10. hycamguy07

    hycamguy07 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    2,707
    3
    0
    Location:
    Central Florida
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Ahhhh, Another disgruntled ex-employee, It figures..

    two people from my church went over to iraq as civilians to install extra armor on the military vehicles. they each got paid $10k a month..

    They also said it was not as bad as the media makes it out to be & that the soldiers where in good spirits & disbelief on how the media was spreading negitive propaganda of the war and that the only persons they saw that were negitive were the ones being shipped home & out of the service...
     
    #10 hycamguy07, Apr 11, 2006
  11. Mystery Squid

    Mystery Squid Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2005
    2
    3
    0
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(geologyrox @ Apr 11 2006, 12:04 PM) [snapback]238026[/snapback]</div>
    Funny, I thought the EXACT same thing as the celebratory bottle of champagne was being sprayed about.... :lol:
     
    #11 Mystery Squid, Apr 11, 2006
  12. hybridTHEvibe

    hybridTHEvibe New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2006
    198
    0
    0
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Apr 11 2006, 12:33 PM) [snapback]238040[/snapback]</div>
    I hope you are not plagiarizing again
     
    #12 hybridTHEvibe, Apr 11, 2006
  13. hycamguy07

    hycamguy07 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    2,707
    3
    0
    Location:
    Central Florida
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hybridTHEvibe @ Apr 11 2006, 12:41 PM) [snapback]238046[/snapback]</div>
    mm hmm , heres another one (_|_) there hybridTHEvibe youve made me do it youve been mooned. :lol:
     
    #13 hycamguy07, Apr 11, 2006
  14. IsrAmeriPrius

    IsrAmeriPrius Progressive Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2004
    4,333
    7
    0
    Location:
    Southern California
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Apr 11 2006, 09:33 AM) [snapback]238040[/snapback]</div>
    The media reports bad news from Iraq because that's the reality. An internal U.S. staff report by the U.S. Embassy and high military command in Baghdad makes it clear that the conflict has turned into increasingly vicious sectarian strife and that much of Iraq remains unstable.

    U.S. Study Paints Somber Portrait of Iraqi Discord
     
    #14 IsrAmeriPrius, Apr 11, 2006
  15. Godiva

    Godiva AmeriKan Citizen

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2005
    10,339
    14
    0
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Isn't it a shame that they can't say anything until AFTER they retire? It's so easy to smear the credentials of a retiree as opposed to an active duty officer.

    And the active duty officers are effectively muzzled.

    These men are experts in their field. When I pay a lawyer a lot of money I listen to his advice because he is an expert on the law. When I pay a doctor a lot of money I listen to his advise because he is an expert on medicine. These men are experts at war, and peace. They should have been listened to instead of given orders they were forced to carry out by men who basically didn't know what they were doing.
     
    #15 Godiva, Apr 11, 2006
  16. Wildkow

    Wildkow New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2006
    5,270
    37
    36
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Apr 11 2006, 07:26 AM) [snapback]237989[/snapback]</div>
    Hundreds in the past 3-5 years.

    Wildkow
     
    #16 Wildkow, Apr 11, 2006
  17. Wildkow

    Wildkow New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2006
    5,270
    37
    36
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Apr 11 2006, 10:31 AM) [snapback]238073[/snapback]</div>
    I should have said retired in the past years for those that think our Generals don't have the balls to tell the truth while in the service.

    Wildkow
     
    #17 Wildkow, Apr 11, 2006
  18. Mystery Squid

    Mystery Squid Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2005
    2
    3
    0
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Apr 11 2006, 01:22 PM) [snapback]238067[/snapback]</div>
    Oh, so you'd rather have Generals running the country?

    If you're going to blame anyone for ANYTHING, it's the anti-Bush contingency for utterly FAILING on November 7, 2004.


    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     
    #18 Mystery Squid, Apr 11, 2006
  19. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2004
    14,487
    1,518
    0
    Location:
    Spokane, WA
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Apr 11 2006, 07:50 AM) [snapback]238020[/snapback]</div>
    No, actually, I didn't have a chance. They told me to pick between a moron and a jerk. They told me to pick between two parties, both of which fully supported a war I considered immoral, illegal, and stupid, and both of which supported repressive laws that played on fear to take away Constitutional rights which form the essence of everything that's good about our country. Not really much of a choice. I cast a protest vote instead (David Cobb, Green Party) because I didn't have a real choice.
     
    #19 daniel, Apr 11, 2006
  20. Godiva

    Godiva AmeriKan Citizen

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2005
    10,339
    14
    0
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Apr 11 2006, 01:41 PM) [snapback]238108[/snapback]</div>
    No. But before *I* declare war on another country, I sure as hell am going to listen to what they have to say on the subject. That's what I pay them for.
     
    #20 Godiva, Apr 11, 2006
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)