Evolution

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Alric @ Sep 21 2006, 11:46 AM) [snapback]322830[/snapback]</div>

Small problem with the poll. If you vote yes, you still have to choose one of the lower choices. Perhaps add "n/a" as an option in the second group.

 

See article about the 3.3 million year old skeleton of a 3 year old female A. Aferensis in today's NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/21/science/...6HjTerRBiXXB31Q

"The first relatively complete shoulder blades to be found in an australopithecine individual was one of the most puzzling aspects of the discovery, several scientists said. The lower body appeared to be adapted for upright walking by afarensis. But the shoulders and long arms were more apelike.

In the journal report, Dr. Alemseged and his team wrote that “the functional interpretation of these features is highly debated, with some arguing that the upper limb features are nonfunctional retentions from a common ancestor only, whereas others proposed that they were preserved because A. afarensis maintained, to some degree, an arboreal component in its locomotor repertoire.â€


Where do you stand on this - was this australopithecine living on the ground or did she have an "arboreal component in her locomotor repertoire"? I would be interested in this evolutionary debate.

 

Personally, I doubt that the upper limb features are simply atavistic retentions from a common ancestor; it seems far more likely that this australopithicine did indeed maintain an aboreal component in her existence. But I could be wrong.

 

Look, drug-resistant bacteria prove that evolution is a working concept. Very rapid turnaround of survival-of-the-fittest.

Religious beliefs giving the whole Earth only 30,000 or so years of existance seems to be the major stumbling block in accepting it for higher-order species like humans.

If you take away evolution, you should also take away geology and anything else that involves long-long-term actions like plants turning into oil. "All oil was delivered by God at the time of Creation" isn't much of a science book anyway...

 

On a related note, isn't it interesting how children go through a stage where they love to climb trees, almost as if they were reinacting our ancestor's arboreal stage in evolution?

 

No rational, credible person believes in evolution. Evolution is a nonbelief system based on evidence. Science strives to disprove its findings. We only accept what we cannot disprove - and we keep testing. Science is never dogmatic.

The premise and structure of the questions do not work.

 

The wording of polls is always tricky. I'll go with what I think you meant to ask and say, yes, I accept the reality of evolution. I appreciate the fact Darwin was studying to be in the clergy, but could not ignore the evidence he observed. The reconciliation of belief and fact was a lifelong struggle for him, and he was always concerned with the sensitivities of his very religious wife.

 

What is there to discuss? Will the next discussion be about whether we "believe" in gravity, whether we "believe" the earth goes round the sun?

That such a question could even be asked in the 21st century is a depressing comment on the state of education in this country. Evolution is not questioned in Canada or in Europe. Why is it questioned here?

The US has no more right to dominence in science and technology than any other country, and if this question about evolution is an indication, countries in asia and europe who are not handicapped by faith based superstitions (stem cell researcher is another example) will pull ahead of the US, if they haven't already. The science will be done; the technology developed - will it be here or elsewhere? Do we want to see a brain drain of our most talented scientists to China?

Can we please leave religion and faith where they belong - in the middle ages. We've been there, done that.

 

That must be the same half who still think Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11
That must be the same half who earn minimum wage but think it is smart to vote for Bush.
Those must be the same people who haven't bothered to look at the scientific impossibilties in the official account of 9/11. (Just for an example, how did the titanium engines of the plane that hit the pentagon "vapourize" and yet they were still able to identify human remains?)

Good thing for this government that most people operate on faith rather than reason.
Bad thing for the people.

In a letter to salon, Pau de Zann writes:

"since the 1974 debut of People Magazine, a culture of triviality has essentially consumed a large part of the American public. Average Americans - even those at very low economic levels - live in a bubble of nonsense, almost entirely separated from the realities of life on this planet. They don't care enough to learn the truth because they don't have to. The criminal, murderous regime in the White House is exactly what they deserve."

Well said, Paul.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ Sep 21 2006, 02:14 PM) [snapback]322942[/snapback]</div>

Yes. Leave religion out of it. Faith, on the other hand, is something we all need, and use to some extent, every day.

I have faith that I will swing both legs out of bed, and be able to walk.
I have faith that my car will start on the first try.
I have faith that the earth will continue to spin, and that today won't be the day that we all die in some sort of nuclear attack.


Oh, and I have faith in Christ, because the evidence of His existence has been proven, by outside sources, that He walked the earth.


I have faith in the basic message He brought, of Peace, Love, and Understanding.

I am a 41 year old man, who is a Preacher, a Follower of Christ, who all too often thinks Religion is the problem. Who thinks the Bible is a wonderful book, written by man, and has flaws therefore.

As to evolution, why believe that? Why believe, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that we evolved from apes? What has stopped apes, then, that currently live on the planet, from also evolving?

Why not just believe that man, dogs, cats, all creatures, just have a beginning that we don't really know?

I mean, take the domestic cat. Where did it evolve from? Or the domestic dog. Where? Sure, both have cousins, like the wolf for the dog, but again. Where did it evolve from? And for that matter, why hasn't the dog evolved further?

See, the problem I have with evolution as a theory, is that we should still be evolving. We should be. We aren't.

Man has yet to evolve further, physically, over the centuries since, if you buy evolution as fact, since we were apes. Why did we stop?

Anyway, before I get flamed, I will add that my lack of faith in evolution has nothing to do with my faith in God. I didn't buy it before I got to know Christ.

And, for what it's worth, I believe there is life Out There, in space. I don't think we are the only creatures in the whole universe.

So, to sum up, I don't believe in evolution, I do believe in Christ, and little green men.


Fire away.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Sep 21 2006, 11:59 AM) [snapback]322976[/snapback]</div>

My Prius does not start "on the first try." It starts (the engine) when it feels like it.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Sep 21 2006, 11:59 AM) [snapback]322976[/snapback]</div>

Why must creationists constantly put false and nonsensical words into the mouths of scientists??? Scientists do not say that we evolved from apes.

Evolution is a fact.

Everything alive on the Earth evolved from earlier forms. Humans did not evolve from apes. Apes and humans evolved from a common ancestor that was neither human nor ape, but that ancestor evolved into several different branches, one of which is humans, and several others of which are the apes.

A similar statement can be made for any two species on the Earth: One did not evolve from the other, but both evolved from something that was not yet either one.

There are competing theories of evolution. Gradualism is the theory that everything is constantly evolving. Punctuated equilibrium is the theory that most species remain relatively stable through most of their existance, and evolution occurs in short bursts where a small isolated population encounters unstable conditions that create the backdrop for change. Either way, the apes evolved, just as we did, and present or future environmental conditions may lead to apes and/or humans evolving into something different.

I think punctuated equilibrium is the more solid version, in which case the human race is presently too large a population to undergo evolution just at present, but another world war could change that. Some ape populations are very small and might be evolving as we write, though even punctuated equilibrium occurs too slowly in vertebrates for a single generation to observe it.

I guess to answer my own question: creationists misrepresent science because it's the only way they can argue against it.

BTW, we've had this discussion in Fred's before, and it's gone on long and long.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ Sep 21 2006, 11:14 AM) [snapback]322942[/snapback]</div>

Gravity, of course, is caused by the Flying Spaghetti Monster pressing down on us with His noodly appendages.

 

Last week I visited the gorillas at the Bronx zoo. They are a star attraction; the crowd went wild when a mother carrying a baby went by the window. The gorillas are more graceful and calmly dignified, even in a captive state, than most people I know. I hope we haven't stopped evolving, because we have a long way to go to catch up with them.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Sep 21 2006, 02:59 PM) [snapback]322976[/snapback]</div>

We are. But it's a very slow process, and impossible to see with the naked eye. Have faith.

Creation, for me, isn't something that happened in a week millennia ago. Life is growing and changing right now, in my own backyard, and yours. Whether I call it evolution or creation does not diminish its beauty.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hyo silver @ Sep 21 2006, 04:24 PM) [snapback]323042[/snapback]</div>

It didn't take a week for me either.

In fact, I have no idea how long it took. However, somehow, some way, we got here. THAT is the mystery.

And anyone who thinks he/she knows 100% sure, how we arrived, is a just fooling themselves.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ Sep 21 2006, 03:59 PM) [snapback]323019[/snapback]</div>

Seriously? You think that? Then tell you what. You go live with the gorillas and deal with their hierarchy.

Have fun. Where can we forward your e-mail?