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Excellent article on Hydrogen fuel / May Scientific American

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by bookrats, Apr 22, 2004.

  1. bookrats

    bookrats New Member

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    There's an excellent article in the new Scientific American discussing the realities and hurdles of hydrogen fuel cell technology.

    Of particular interest is a comparison of how various fuels compare (i.e., standard ICE, diesel ICE, hybrid gasoline, hybrid diesel, etc.) in:
    • "Well to wheels" energy efficiency -- basically, looking at the overall efficiency, including, producing/drilling the fuel, refining it, transporting it, and then how efficient the vehicle is.
    • Emissions, including emissions/pollution created by producing/refining the fuel in the first place.

      • I walked away with a lot of interesting information; the main points being:
        • Hydrogen fuel cells sound great for cell phones and laptops, but it seems like a stretch (some major obstacles there) to getting it to power a car.
        • It's really facinating to see how a hybrid compares, relatively, to other types of auto engines. Yes, they're clean and efficient, but not much more than diesels. And really, hydrogen-fuel cell cars aren't either (if you include the energy/emissions it takes to produce the fuel). I'm glad I'm buying a Prius, and I think the technology is terrific and should be used on a world-wide basis (where it makes sense) -- but it's not a panacea.
        • There are some really interesting things that could done with hydrogen fuel technology outside of fuel cells -- things like using it to extract gasoline from "crude" crude oil that normally would have too many hydrocarbons to refine.
          • In other words, a smart energy policy doesn't bet all of our $$ on one horse. We use technology to reduce our dependence on crude in various areas (power, heat, etc.) and thus have more to use in areas where these these technologies make less sense -- like cars, but augmented with hybrid and other technologies.

            [The S.A. web site has yet to list the May issue on their web site.]

     
    #1 bookrats, Apr 22, 2004
  2. cybele

    cybele New Member

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    I saw a similar little snippet article in the December issue of Discover Magazine:

    Basically, the article said, "A near-future fuel-cell car would not be much cleaner than a well-designed battery-gasoline hybrid." because "although fuel-cell vehicles would produce zero greenhouse-gas emissions during use, the extraction and refinement of hydrogen fuel would release three to five times as much carbon into the air as is released in procuring and refining gasoline and diesel."

    There's a poorly rendered graph there that shows how hybrids, regular gasoline powered, diesel and hydrogen vehicles would stack up.

    http://www.discover.com/issues/dec-03/rd/d...ogen-fuel-cell/

    I think that data comes from the same MIT study, but I'll pick up SCIAM to check that article out (I usually read it on the web).

    I do hope that this doesn't cause hybrid developers to rest on their laurels. I think we've got a long way to go, but the Prius is definitely going in the right direction. Because the amazing thing is that we have the Prius and its technology now and it can be integrated into every car coming off the assembly line within the next three to five years and the conversion to the hydrogen economy is going to take at least 20 years ... so what's the harm in doing the right thing if only for a short time?

    Thanks for the heads up on that article, bookrats.
     
    #2 cybele, Apr 22, 2004
  3. bookrats

    bookrats New Member

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    I absolutely agree with you. And looking at the article, the thing that becomes apparent is, "every little bit helps". Plus, for the vast majority of drivers, a hybrid is a win-win situation -- you're not giving anything up to get better gas economy and cleaner air.

    De nada!
     
    #3 bookrats, Apr 22, 2004
  4. jasond

    jasond New Member

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    The best thing about the Prius is the slippery slope effect.

    Until now, there's been no real push to improve battery technology at sizes above that powering a laptop. Now that hybrids are going mainstream, Prius-sized batteries (and larger) will start to see the benefits of mass production and competition.

    And the same with the other parts of the system. Things will only get better from here...
     
    #4 jasond, Apr 22, 2004
  5. Brian

    Brian Member

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    I did my science fair project on the fuel cell and hydrogen and found that they are very efficient. At least my model. lol. And the only result is water. Cool.
     
    #5 Brian, Apr 22, 2004
  6. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    Hydrogen has great potential IMO only if it is produced using solar cells or wind power to hydrolyze water. By-product at the production end is oxygen, and at the consumption end is water.

    If it's produced using fossil fuel, I don't think anything is gained.

    Once produced, I think it makes more sense to burn it in an ICE or, better yet, an external-combustion engine, such as a Stirling-cycle engine, than in fuel cells, which are likely to be expensive.
     
    #6 daniel, Apr 22, 2004
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