Flexible, paper-based supercapacitor could improve performance of hybrid electric veh

I don't understand why this technology isn't being utilized right now????

What's taking it so long? I hear about it in articles but, I see noone using it on HEV's. No automaker is talking about it, no concept vehicles, nothing. It seems like such a basic thing to me. I might just try it myself.

 

Cost, availability, and reliability.

Tom

 

but other than that?


.

 

Probably hasn't been tested fully, it needs to be prototyped... Also, if you ever worked with computers, Capacitors are one of the weak points in a circuit system... From my fun times with Dell computers, when they had a bad lot of capacitors... It's fun trying to deal with a problem with a computer that should be fine and looking at the bunch of capacitors for the one that popped.

 

Everyone's just playing with it so far. Here it is on F1
KERS of the hybrid car: Flywheels and ultracapacitors give you a 10-second jolt | ExtremeTech
The video at the bottom shows a bmw with an supercap shocking a mechanic. It really was a problem with grounding not the supercap;-)

The first use is to use more power from the brakes, then be able to use this in the motor. Car makers are very touchy about their regenerative brakes, that is why we are seeing the F1 racing demo first.

supercaps are too expensive right now to be the sole storage, so they will be used in conjunction with batteries for now.

 

I'm not convinced that power density limitations of current batteries are the weak link in the charging chain. That is, I think the traction batteries of BEVs, PHEVs, and possibly HEVs can already handle all the power the regen motor can throw at them.

 

I don't understand why this technology isn't being utilized right now?

 

As stated before, the technology is a bit expensive at the time, and it still needs to be prototyped. The other problem with capacitors is that if not done right, they can be a weak link in the system, especially if they fail.

Plus anything of this nature, would technically be used by the military first, given that BAE Systems has designed the first applied Railgun weapon. Super capacitors would be more ideal for a railgun. While it can be applied to hybrid cars, the technology is still a bit expensive that the military will have control over that for a couple of years.

 

Maybe cool, but what they heck are they talking about in terms of capacitors.

Liquid? Electrolyte? Inflexible?

Most capitors are metal separated by a dielectric (mylar mostly, but paper is used), then rolled up into a can shape. No liquid. No Electrolyte. As flexible as you want. Completely solid state.

Go break one open, if you doubt.

[I had to check the posting date, given today's date.]

 

Here is a picture (courtesy of Hobbit) of the braking capacitors in a Prius (2005).

 

Remember, the Key word is High Voltage, Corwyn... We aren't talking .1v or 5v, we are talking on the level of 100-200v with higher amperage than what most electronic devices uses. Solid state devices use, at most 12v with a .5 to 1 amp current. I don't know how much horsepower per kilowatt of power (P=va) But I do recall that both voltage and amperage should be high to drive an electric motor that is pushing something of significant weight.

In the original posting, the reason capacitors aren't used in EV cars is because in order to effectively MAKE a capacitor to hold that power is, sadly going to be big and heavy, as heavy or more heavier than current battery technologies allow for.

Secondly, take a course in Electronics. Capacitors aren't 100% solid state, as you think they are. Solid State Design is using semi-conductor etching to affect electric pathways, generally to mimic certain circuit and state designs that would have been done with other circuits (Back in the early 20th century, that would be vacuum tubes). Capacitors, to this day, are as you say, but also capacitance was defined by the surface area of the particular cathode and anode. In some cases a medium between the two would also be necessary to increase the capacitance of the capacitor.

Lastly, check out some of those very capacitors. The Cathode and anode are using a chemical reaction. I have seen some of them pop or become useless. If you look at the round ones, at the top of the cylindrical ones in computers and smaller solid state devices, you will see a + or K or - in the middle. When those get overloaded and pop, you will see those 'dome', sometimes something colored at the top of them. That is the chemical reaction of the capacitor that has exceeded or failed.

 

As I linked the current ones are being used in kers systems. Toyota is going to be running supercaps in their Lamans car. These only are big enough for regen braking, not charging, and I suspect they will be used with batteries in their first hybrid car application. There are around 200 buses using supercaps for regen braking. Remember you don't need many wh to power a car if its only for 8 second bursts of acceleration.

IIRC the highest voltage ones are 5V, so if you want a 200V system you need 40 of them, which is not that big of a number. BMW, Ford, Tesla, Toyota, and Toyota all have projects, and I would be everyone else does too. These require more complicated electronics.

 

a

 

This seems very confused. The bulk of capacitors are solid state. None of them use chemical reactions. It doesn't matter where the definition of Farad (measure of capacitance) came from. They all have dielectric separators between the plates.

Super and ultras use electrolytes, which means they are not solid. There is no irreversible changes when charging or discharging. They are limited in voltage like all capacitors, before they break down.
How An Ultra Capacitor Works - Ultra Capacitor - Super Capacitors - Super Battery?

 

capacitor: Definition from Answers.com

Here is where I am thinking Capacitor for the most part from when I was doing high school electronics. When you think solid state, you are thinking ceramic capacitors, and that is part of what I am thinking you are thinking. I am also looking at the non-ceramic, aluminum ones, which are the ones I commonly see in computers that often pop, which do have a sort of 'pus' or chemical salt at the top if it pops. And Austin, I have also seen larger capacitors that use basically electolytics, which, back in the day, my teacher said if that one popped, it would be a pretty bad pop.

 

I was saying the supercapacitors and ultracapacitors use electrolyte - unlike some, not all, normal capacitors are solid state. There are capacitors etched as part of integrated circuits, those with metal plates and just solid gas or vacuum dieletrics, as well as electrolytic ones. Electrolytic capacitors are polarized and can only be used in dc circuits. The electrolyte allows greater surface area in a smaller volume and lower costs, but some are manufactured low quality control. The pop may happen in fault conditions of over voltage, over current, wrong polarity, or over heat.

I super or ultra cap has a sandwich of metal, electrolyte,dielectric separator, electrolyte,metal. This is different than the common electrolytic ones you may have worked with. There isn't a chemical reaction in any of them. You had part right, part wrong. A super capacitor is much more forgiving when it comes to voltage and current than a battery, and does not age by number of charges.

Think about a 200 wh super cap in a prius hybrid. It might be able to provide 12 seconds of 60kw power ( the max the prius motor will take). That would not need to be big, but could provide plenty of acceleration boost.

From the previous site I linked
http://www.supercapacitors.org/