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Gen 1 Prius battery short? common?

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Technical Discussion' started by lmarcucci, Jun 4, 2013.

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  1. lmarcucci

    lmarcucci Junior Member

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    long time lurker. I know this might be a long shot because this forum seems like asking a bunch of women(who will then just suggest taking my prius to the dealership) when it comes to working on their cars, but do battery blades/modules actually short? I was getting very little voltage from my HV battery terminals when I engaged the battery safety interlock, so i decided to take the battery apart. I disconnected the bus bar, all the battery terminals(and accompanying orange plastic wires) then removed one battery module and put my multimeter on continuity mode, put the leads on the terminals and sure enough it beeped and detected that there was a short. I tested the voltage and there was less than .01V. I proceeded to test the rest of the modules in the pack and all of them had shorts in them and none of them had more than .04V. Is this a common problem? How would a whole battery pack go bad like this? (I bought the car like this)

    I don't want to fix it. I was just amazed that this could actually happen. I have a used reinvolt battery coming for it that I picked up for an absolute deal and a half($700).
     
    #1 lmarcucci, Jun 4, 2013
  2. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    This sounds like an insult. Do you seriously expect people to help when you start with a comment like that?

    In any event, if you are actually measuring voltage (not continuity) across a battery module, and you measure much less than 7.2V, then you should expect the module is bad. As to why all 38 modules are bad (since your subject line reads Gen 1): If two or more modules have electrolyte leakage to the battery case, that conductive path will cause them to discharge. If the battery has been sitting around unused for an extended period of time like a year or more, the modules will eventually discharge. Further, the Gen 1 modules are 11-13 years old by now and are at or near end of life just due to their age.
     
    #2 Patrick Wong, Jun 5, 2013
  3. Britprius

    Britprius Senior Member

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    You cannot check a battery with a meter in"continuity mode". I presume by this you mean one of the resistance ranges probably low ohms or diode check.
    It is most unlikely that all the modules will have voltages that low off load. It is possible you have blown the fuse in your meter or you are measuring voltage on the wrong setting.

    John (Britprius)
     
    #3 Britprius, Jun 5, 2013
  4. lmarcucci

    lmarcucci Junior Member

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    Woops. I mean't I put it on diode check. And I put it on DC and measured a lead acid battery to double check my multimeter worked. There's nothing wrong with my multimeter. Could my battery be this fubar'd?
     
    #4 lmarcucci, Jun 5, 2013
  5. Britprius

    Britprius Senior Member

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    This is quite possible and probable, however unlike lead acid it is possible that many of the modules could recover if rebalanced, but given the age it would be better to rebuild with all replacement gen2 modules or better still purchase a battery from one of the rebuilders such as Reinvolt.

    John (Britprius)
     
    #5 Britprius, Jun 5, 2013
  6. lmarcucci

    lmarcucci Junior Member

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    How could all of these modules be failing a diode test? Will resistance go up if there is a charge? I ordered a couple imax b6's and two balance boards, but I also bought a used reinvolt battery from ebay. So, if I can recharge this battery, ill just sell it.
     
    #6 lmarcucci, Jun 5, 2013
  7. Britprius

    Britprius Senior Member

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    You cannot use a diode test on a battery. A diode does not output a voltage and has resistance when connected one way and is open circuit the other.

    John (Britprius)
     
    #7 Britprius, Jun 5, 2013
  8. lmarcucci

    lmarcucci Junior Member

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    Are there any multimeter tests I can do to determine if any of these modules are good? Or will I just have to hook them up to the charger and pray? How the hell would a whole battery pack be drained all the way down like this?
     
    #8 lmarcucci, Jun 5, 2013
  9. Britprius

    Britprius Senior Member

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    The likely reason is as Patrick stated in post (3) but how long did this battery stand unused, what was it's state of charge when left, we need to know more information before a reasonable diagnosis can be given.

    John (Britprius)
     
    #9 Britprius, Jun 5, 2013
  10. lmarcucci

    lmarcucci Junior Member

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    Sorry, I didn't notice his post. I don't really know much about the battery pack. I bought the car wrecked woth about 180k on it. The guy lied to me and told me the pack was rebuilt about 2 months ago. I bet it was rebuilt because there and red and black marker marks that mark the positive and negative terminals. There is also 1 or 11's marked on all the modules. Guessing gen 1 and gen 2 modules. Now, there is a brown goo around the terminals and I can't tell if that is expoxy for the orange bus bars or electrolyte leak. Any ideas?
     

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    #10 lmarcucci, Jun 5, 2013
  11. Britprius

    Britprius Senior Member

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    The goo was put on by the dealers on instructions from Toyota to try and stop the leakage that occurred with the early gen1 batteries. Leakage shows up as green stains on the copper bus bars but is difficult to see on the plastic body of the modules. Gen2 modules are slightly longer than gen1 and should not be mixed within the same battery.

    John (Britprius)
     
    #11 Britprius, Jun 5, 2013
  12. lmarcucci

    lmarcucci Junior Member

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    So, once electrolyte has leaked out is there anyway to recover a module? I'll post pictures of the bus bars with the copper terminals on them. I think i saw a green stain or two.
     
    #12 lmarcucci, Jun 5, 2013
  13. Britprius

    Britprius Senior Member

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    If the module is leaking it is of no further use.

    John (Britprius)
     
    #13 Britprius, Jun 5, 2013
  14. lmarcucci

    lmarcucci Junior Member

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    So, is this the green stain you are talking about or is that just commom battery corrosion? A good amount of the copper terminals look like that.
     

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    #14 lmarcucci, Jun 5, 2013
  15. Britprius

    Britprius Senior Member

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    The corrosion is indicative of leaking of the KOH from the modules.
    You will notice it is present where the terminals exit the modules and where the sealer has been applied to try and stop it.
    Any leakage spells problems as the KOH (battery chemical) is conductive to electricity. Washing of in a mild acid (vinegar) can help in the short term but it will continue to leak and cause problems.

    John (Britprius)
     
    #15 Britprius, Jun 5, 2013
  16. lmarcucci

    lmarcucci Junior Member

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    Alright, I'll clean everything up and see what happens when i charge the modules.

    I got one more question...

    Is the battery ecu specific to it's own prius or can you swap full battery pack assemblies on the fly?
     
    #16 lmarcucci, Jun 5, 2013
  17. kenmce

    kenmce High Voltage Member

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    /Signs in as male so post may actually be read/

    I am all in favor of fixing and reusing things, do it all the time myself. However, there are things that can't reasonably be fixed. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and just replace the whole damn unit. That stuff that's rotting the copper? It's Potassium hydroxide, your electrolyte. Once it's out of the cell it's no good. You can't stuff it back in and cleaning the housing won't help you. The cell is going to continue to leak no matter what you do.

    After you get the reinvolt in you can hand over the whole old unit to Toyota and let them recycle it (Wait, is that too feminine of an answer??) or you can separate out the cells that have no leakage and use them for projects. They are getting too old and tired to go into fixing up another traction battery.

    Please do NOT try to sell off the ones that have leaked. They will continue to leak and will &*%!! up the next guy who tries to work with them. About the only thing they are good for now is you could open them up and use the KOH for drain cleaner.
     
    #17 kenmce, Jun 8, 2013
  18. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    The photos clearly show NHW11 modules but I'm more curious about the "car wreck."

    Are you planning to rebuild the wreck or was the goal just the traction battery?

    Just a thought, you might hit "report" on your first post and let the moderators know this is really a "Gen 1" post in a "Gen 2" forum. They are very good about moving a thread into the right forum. Once you get a chance to read some the existing posts, you'll get a lot of insights to help in your next project phase.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #18 bwilson4web, Jun 8, 2013
  19. edthefox5

    edthefox5 Senior Member

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    Checks batteries with diode function. Check.
    Doesn't know what green "stain" on battery buss bars means. Check.
    Obviously no experience on high voltage dc battery packs. Check.

    This should end really well. [​IMG]

    Btw, I know some women who could run rings around you with a voltmeter.
     
    #19 edthefox5, Jun 12, 2013
  20. lmarcucci

    lmarcucci Junior Member

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    I hope you married one of them, because if you don't, I might. We all have to learn somehow.

    SCH-I535 ? 4 Beta
     
    #20 lmarcucci, Jun 12, 2013
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