GM/DCX/BMW 2-Mode Hybrids

jonathanrohr · May 2, 2007

Interesting write-up about GM's new two-mode hybrid system and its following implementations..

Gives a suprisingly large ammount of technical info.. continue on at link:

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/05/01/ab...-and-gmc-yukon/

Although I think this may be somewhat dated.. last I heard the hybrid pickups got the axe.. or were put on hold.. not entirely sure.

Pinto Girl · May 2, 2007

I'd DEFINITELY recommend getting the extended warranty on one of those babies!

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daniel · May 2, 2007

Lots of announcements. Blah blah blah. Wake me when they actually build something.

Jonnycat26 · May 2, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 2 2007, 10:18 PM) [snapback]434436[/snapback]</div>

Lots of announcements. Blah blah blah. Wake me when they actually build something.
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Ah crap, that's the alarm clock. Looks like the 2Mode Tahoe is in production.

jonathanrohr · May 6, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ May 2 2007, 08:18 PM) [snapback]434363[/snapback]</div>

I'd DEFINITELY recommend getting the extended warranty on one of those babies!

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Yeah, i would too, because for me, 5 years 100000 miles just isnt enough!

And while we're throwing up pollitical cartoons, could I see the one where toyota is pushing the prius out to the front stage while it hides its 15mpg Sequia and Tundra behind a curtain?

Or how about the one where toyota's engineers are standing wrapped in the american flag waving at us across the pacific saying "its built in america!!!". because I know when I grow up, I want to assemble kit cars sent here from another country, because as an american, im just not quite smart enough to engineer my own.

john1701a · May 6, 2007

The most basic of our questions aren't answered though. The waiting game (with lots of hype in the meantime) is really a pain...

How will it be priced? Knowing that information is a must.

What about stealth, an obvious "full" hybrid benefit? The speed & distance available remains a mystery.

When is a car equipped with Two-Mode planned, something to compete directly with Camry-Hybrid?

Emission-Rating and anticipated EPA efficiency estimates would be nice too.

F8L · May 6, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonathan Rohr @ May 6 2007, 04:44 PM) [snapback]436544[/snapback]</div>

Yeah, i would too, because for me, 5 years 100000 miles just isnt enough!

And while we're throwing up pollitical cartoons, could I see the one where toyota is pushing the prius out to the front stage while it hides its 15mpg Sequia and Tundra behind a curtain?

Or how about the one where toyota's engineers are standing wrapped in the american flag waving at us across the pacific saying "its built in america!!!". because I know when I grow up, I want to assemble kit cars sent here from another country, because as an american, im just not quite smart enough to engineer my own.
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Since a large portion of the parts on GMs are not made in the U.S. you'd be assembling kit cars anyway. lol Domestic brand loyalty is pretty retarded nowadays considering all of the pretty aweful stuff those large corporations do to us and their own workers. This isn't 1950 anymore.

Hecho en Mexico!

JimN · May 6, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonathan Rohr @ May 6 2007, 06:44 PM) [snapback]436544[/snapback]</div>

Yeah, i would too, because for me, 5 years 100000 miles just isnt enough!

And while we're throwing up pollitical cartoons, could I see the one where toyota is pushing the prius out to the front stage while it hides its 15mpg Sequia and Tundra behind a curtain?

Or how about the one where toyota's engineers are standing wrapped in the american flag waving at us across the pacific saying "its built in america!!!". because I know when I grow up, I want to assemble kit cars sent here from another country, because as an american, im just not quite smart enough to engineer my own.
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When was the last time a car was built in the USA with only US sourced parts?

hill · May 6, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 2 2007, 10:54 PM) [snapback]434463[/snapback]</div>

Ah crap, that's the alarm clock. Looks like the 2Mode Tahoe is in production.
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I see a ton of folks lining up for it too.

jonathanrohr · May 7, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ May 6 2007, 08:15 PM) [snapback]436559[/snapback]</div>

Since a large portion of the parts on GMs are not made in the U.S. you'd be assembling kit cars anyway. lol Domestic brand loyalty is pretty retarded nowadays considering all of the pretty aweful stuff those large corporations do to us and their own workers. This isn't 1950 anymore.

Hecho en Mexico!

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You, like most people, use the exception to prove the supposed rule. Toyota builds the Camry here, so all their cars are american. GM builds the Cobalt in mexico so now all their cars come from mexico right?

This is a direct quote from Representative Joe Knollenberg: "Toyota employs 34,000 people in America. The Big 3 employ nearly 400,000 people in America. The Big 3 build 7 out of every 10 cars made in our country. The Big 3 purchase almost 80 percent of all U.S. auto parts. The Big 3 impact more than 7 million jobs in America. Toyota and all of the other foreign companies combined impact less than 2 million jobs."

Im sorry F8L, but you're wrong. However there is nothing wrong with buying a Toyota, or having them here to compete. Competition is the ultimate driving force in our economy, and it needs to be encouraged. Yet, the fact remains that part content on a Toyota is on average 49% US, while on GM and Ford vehicles it is 80% and 76% respectivley. So they went nuts on the Camry to load it up and be a poster boy, but what about the entire Scion line? I would be willing to bet that all of those have less than 5% domestic content, and our Shogun masters dont even allow us to assemble them.

The US has a 7.1 BILLION dollar trade deficit with Japan. When you buy a Japanese product, you send your money floating across the pacific, and there it stays. If you are so bold as to buy a US (or Canadian/Mexican) product, the money does a funny thing; IT COMES BACK. The engineer, line worker, designer, businessman, etc, get that money, and then maybe, just maybe, spend it on something you do!

But you dont WANT to believe this, so there is no further point in me talking about it.

narf · May 7, 2007

Good for GM! If they can make it reliable and convince the truck/SUV die-hards to buy them, that's less greenhouse gasses and less oil from the A-rabs. Of course, I'd rather wean them off of SUVs entirely, but it's a step in the right direction. (and there are a few people who really DO need trucks and SUVs).

At least this thing will get built, unlike the VOLT concept car.

jonathanrohr · May 7, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ May 6 2007, 08:11 PM) [snapback]436557[/snapback]</div>

The most basic of our questions aren't answered though. The waiting game (with lots of hype in the meantime) is really a pain...

How will it be priced? Knowing that information is a must.

What about stealth, and obvious "full" hybrid benefit? The speed & distance available remains a mystery.

When is a car equipped with Two-Mode planned, something to compete directly with Camry-Hybrid?

Emission-Rating and anticipated EPA efficiency estimates would be nice too.
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Thank you for intelligent questions!

Unfortunately I dont really have too many answers.

Pricing: GM maintains about a 10,000 dollar profit margin on the Tahoe, so the hybrid system could theoretically be completely soaked up by GM if they wanted to make this vehicle a poster child. That wont happen, of course. Yet, I would expect them to deflate their profit by a bit to make this product feasible. My guess would be that we see the usual hybrid premium of about 3-4k.

Stealth/Full Hybrid: Not really sure what you mean here. Speed and distance? The gas tank will be the same size I think.. and its a two mode so it is a full-hybrid. Stealth? It will look very different to the trained eye, it has a different CD, down by .03-.04 i think, its lower with a different bumper and hood as well as spoiler. It also has lightweight rims, as well as hood and liftgate. It has a hybrid badge on the two C pillars and on the rear. Is that what u meant?

Car: do not know exactly. If I had to guess though I would say the MCE for the Aura and Malibu, which would put it around 2010, 2011. It would be logical to assume that this might get put on the backburner if they are really serious about the Volt. A mistake, in my opinion. If ive said it once Ive said it a million times, "Having the best Hybrid Full-Size SUV is like being the fast marathoner over 300lbs; its admirable, but your still not very good, and nobody cares."

EPA MPG: As far as MPG goes, their claim comes out to be something like 25% overall, with 40% city improvement and 10% on the highway. This is based off of the 5.3L V8, not the larger V8 the hybrid will use. And yes, I, like you, would like some straight up numbers too. But if we do the math our selves, we get: 22/24 (up from 16/22). This is fairly solid in my opinion, I see no reason why people couldnt average 20MPG. This being said, Im sure the auto journalists and their lead foots wont see much better than 16...

EPA Emissions: No word of any more advanced exhaust components to help with emissions. This vehicle will of course be cleaner than normal due to all the electric assist, cylinder deactivation and the beast turning off when stopped or coasting, but by no stretch of the imagination will it count as 'green' when compared to the Prius and Insight.

I hope my logical and informed speculation is close enough to answers for now ;-)

F8L · May 7, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonathan Rohr @ May 7 2007, 07:33 AM) [snapback]436804[/snapback]</div>

You, like most people, use the exception to prove the supposed rule. Toyota builds the Camry here, so all their cars are american. GM builds the Cobalt in mexico so now all their cars come from mexico right?

This is a direct quote from Representative Joe Knollenberg: "Toyota employs 34,000 people in America. The Big 3 employ nearly 400,000 people in America. The Big 3 build 7 out of every 10 cars made in our country. The Big 3 purchase almost 80 percent of all U.S. auto parts. The Big 3 impact more than 7 million jobs in America. Toyota and all of the other foreign companies combined impact less than 2 million jobs."

Im sorry F8L, but you're wrong. However there is nothing wrong with buying a Toyota, or having them here to compete. Competition is the ultimate driving force in our economy, and it needs to be encouraged. Yet, the fact remains that part content on a Toyota is on average 49% US, while on GM and Ford vehicles it is 80% and 76% respectivley. So they went nuts on the Camry to load it up and be a poster boy, but what about the entire Scion line? I would be willing to bet that all of those have less than 5% domestic content, and our Shogun masters dont even allow us to assemble them.

The US has a 7.1 BILLION dollar trade deficit with Japan. When you buy a Japanese product, you send your money floating across the pacific, and there it stays. If you are so bold as to buy a US (or Canadian/Mexican) product, the money does a funny thing; IT COMES BACK. The engineer, line worker, designer, businessman, etc, get that money, and then maybe, just maybe, spend it on something you do!

But you dont WANT to believe this, so there is no further point in me talking about it.
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You never mentioned anything about GMs plan to close over 2 dozen plants by 2012 or the fact that they lobby for enough environmentally destructive issues that the money they bring back to the table just gets used up paying for health care and cleanups. Obviously not all but my point stands. People act like they are god send when in fact they are just as much the enemy as most of the other giant corporations. IE profit is #1.

But yeah, I'd never buy a GM product.....

jonathanrohr · May 7, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ May 7 2007, 10:59 AM) [snapback]436827[/snapback]</div>

But yeah, I'd never buy a GM product.....
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You failed to mention when I ever said that...

And just FYI, my car was made in Canada, using a US Engine and Tranny.. and.. ZOMG, Mexican Speakers!!!1one!!

mkaresh · May 7, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonathan Rohr @ May 6 2007, 07:44 PM) [snapback]436544[/snapback]</div>

Or how about the one where toyota's engineers are standing wrapped in the american flag waving at us across the pacific saying "its built in america!!!". because I know when I grow up, I want to assemble kit cars sent here from another country, because as an american, im just not quite smart enough to engineer my own.
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Especially on Honda and Acura forums I've frequently come across posts where people lament that a car was engineered in the U.S. rather than Japan. As if Japanese are inherently better engineers. Quite a few self-hating Americans running about.

If we're all so incompetent, then how do we deserve to buy superior products from others?

F8L · May 7, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonathan Rohr @ May 7 2007, 08:10 AM) [snapback]436839[/snapback]</div>

You failed to mention when I ever said that...

And just FYI, my car was made in Canada, using a US Engine and Tranny.. and.. ZOMG, Mexican Speakers!!!1one!!
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LMAO! Watch out for those rear 6.5" speakers. They blow out with the quickness.

I sold all mine except the 4x4. It is my only claim to hipocracy since it's twin turboed.

daniel · May 7, 2007

To everyone who shouts "Buy American!" I answer: I want my car to be reliable. When the American companies build a car as reliable as the Japanese, then I'll switch, if others thongs are equal. Americans can build just as good a car as the Japanese do. The huge gap in reliability is policy! Quality costs money and the American car executives keep costs down by not investing in quality, so they can give themselves bigger pay or bonuses.

I don't fault them for wanting to make money. I fault them for being too greedy: stealing from quality to pay themselves obscene bonuses (whether their company is profitable or not!)

F8L · May 7, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mkaresh @ May 7 2007, 08:21 AM) [snapback]436843[/snapback]</div>

Especially on Honda and Acura forums I've frequently come across posts where people lament that a car was engineered in the U.S. rather than Japan. As if Japanese are inherently better engineers. Quite a few self-hating Americans running about.

If we're all so incompetent, then how do we deserve to buy superior products from others?
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Having pride in America is slipping for a lot of reasons. Car quality is one of them. Having owned all domestics in my life I would have been the first to stand up and defend GM but one cannot argue the quality difference is superior in a lot of the Japanese cars. I did high end car stereo for 10yrs and have seen more than a few cars torn down to their nuts and bolts.

Blind loyalty does no one any good IMO. I'd much rather raise critisism and see things get changed.

daniel · May 7, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonathan Rohr @ May 7 2007, 07:58 AM) [snapback]436824[/snapback]</div>

Stealth/Full Hybrid: Not really sure what you mean here.
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By "stealth" John means the ability of the car to travel under electric power with the gas engine off. I consider the term ill-chosen, because the tires still make noise on the pavement, and I don't like the military sound of the word. But Prius drivers settled on that word right from the beginning. I prefer the term "golf-cart mode" ever since a friend told me that my car, backing out of the garage, was as quiet as a golf cart. My term failed to catch on.

By "full hybrid" he means the unique serial/parallel arrangement of the Prius drivetrain, as opposed to the parallel-only arrangement of the Honda hybrids, or the serial-only hybrid system used in modern diesel-powered freight train locomotives.

john1701a · May 7, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonathan Rohr @ May 7 2007, 09:58 AM) [snapback]436824[/snapback]</div>

Stealth/Full Hybrid: Not really sure what you mean here. Speed and distance? The gas tank will be the same size I think.. and its a two mode so it is a full-hybrid. Stealth? It will look very different to the trained eye, it has a different CD, down by .03-.04 i think, its lower with a different bumper and hood as well as spoiler. It also has lightweight rims, as well as hood and liftgate. It has a hybrid badge on the two C pillars and on the rear. Is that what u meant?[/b]
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No, that isn't even remotely close to what I meant. But you respectfully expended the time and provided detail in your response... something rare in the non-hybrid forms. Thank You!

By the way, I always wondered if those other responses elsewhere actually understood. They claimed to, but now I really doubt that. Anywho...

STEALTH SPEED is limited to the maximum RPM available with the engine stopped entirely (no fuel, no motion). For the HSD, that limit is 42 MPH. For Ford's hybrid system, that limit is 25 MPH.

STEALTH DISTANCE is the maximum distance you can squeeze out of the battery-pack in ideal non-emergency conditions. For the current model Prius, that's 3 miles. For the upcoming new Prius, it is expected to be 9 miles.

GM/DCX/BMW 2-Mode Hybrids

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