Gm's Volt: Made In China?

hill · Feb 13, 2008

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GM's trying to buy out it's remaining 75,000 member work force, ESPECIALLY the highest paid workers. Is this simply so they can reduce their employee's hourly cost to a meager $15/hr ?? Or does the tag team of Wagner/Lutz have a more sinister purpose. Having become infamous for plant closures, what guarantee is there that if GM ever DOES, make a prototype, much less a production car, that it won't be outsourced like so much of what they are already doing? Not that I care, but it WOULD be nice to think the first production PHEV would at least be partially be made here.

Furthermore, our legislators (at least some of them) are trying to get tax credits for future purchases of the Volt.

GM-VOLT : Chevy Volt Concept Site Â» Blog Archive Â» Congressman Jay Inslee on the Status of Plug-in Vehicle Tax Credits

What a coincidence that while a legislative attempt at making the Volt's cost more palatable (by suggesting a $4K tax credit if you buy one) that GM would suggest that IF it gets built, it just jumped from $30K to $40K (shaking head). Oh well, so much for a tax credit.

richard schumacher · Feb 13, 2008

Of course. It has to be cheap enough for the Chinese and Indians to buy if it is going to do significant good.

boulder_bum · Feb 13, 2008

richard schumacher said: ↑

Of course. It has to be cheap enough for the Chinese and Indians to buy if it is going to do significant good.
Click to expand...

Hey, if GM can reduce the cost to open up the market to those making $1 for a 12 hour workday then woohoo!

The average annual wage for even a project manager in India in 2005 was about $10,000 and in China it was about $24,000.

Don't kid yourself, even the vast minority of less-poor (I hesitate to use the word "rich") in China and India aren't going to buy a Volt since it will cost much more than their annual salary. Offshoring won't bring costs down to the point where a Chinese worker can afford the Volt any more than GM moving plants to Mexico in the 80's brought costs down enough for Mexicans making 70 cents an hour to afford a Hummer.

That said, I think GM announced that they'll build the Volt in an American plant.

malorn · Feb 14, 2008

boulder_bum said: ↑

Hey, if GM can reduce the cost to open up the market to those making $1 for a 12 hour workday then woohoo!

The average annual wage for even a project manager in India in 2005 was about $10,000 and in China it was about $24,000.

Don't kid yourself, even the vast minority of less-poor (I hesitate to use the word "rich") in China and India aren't going to buy a Volt since it will cost much more than their annual salary. Offshoring won't bring costs down to the point where a Chinese worker can afford the Volt any more than GM moving plants to Mexico in the 80's brought costs down enough for Mexicans making 70 cents an hour to afford a Hummer.

That said, I think GM announced that they'll build the Volt in an American plant.
Click to expand...

Its already been revealed, it will be built where it should be, in Detroit.
GM-UAW Deal: Volt Built in Detroit - The Car Connection

Maybe Hill will tell us that they will secretly be transported in from China and then just roll of the an empty assembly plant in Detroit.

hill · Feb 14, 2008

malorn said: ↑

Its already been revealed, it will be built where it should be, in Detroit.
GM-UAW Deal: Volt Built in Detroit - The Car Connection

Maybe Hill will tell us that they will secretly be transported in from China and then just roll of the an empty assembly plant in Detroit.
Click to expand...

If they ever DO build it ... even the prototype, I'd LOVE to see it built in the U.S.A. Problem is, when GM says, "Built in the U.S.A." that often means the 'final assembly' ie; after the doors, chassis, other systems, etc are assembled elsewhere. After all, just because GM SAYS it, doesn't mean it's true. You DO remember, "We don't have a list of thousands for the EV1 ... no one wanted it ... that's why we had to Lease 'em in stead of selling them" don't you? How about, "We'll build the Volt & sell it for $30K " ... or how about, "the prototype will be ready Easter of 2008" etc. I needn't post the whole laundry list of GM lies. But heck, call me an eternally optomistic fool ... I'm still hoping.

malorn · Feb 14, 2008

hill said: ↑

If they ever DO build it ... even the prototype, I'd LOVE to see it built in the U.S.A. Problem is, when GM says, "Built in the U.S.A." that often means the 'final assembly' ie; after the doors, chassis, other systems, etc are assembled elsewhere. After all, just because GM SAYS it, doesn't mean it's true. You DO remember, "We don't have a list of thousands for the EV ... no one wanted it" don't you? How about, "We'll build the Volt & sell it for $30K " ... or how about, "the prototype will be ready Easter of 2008" etc. I needn't post the whole laundry list of GM lies. But heck, call me an eternally optomistic fool ... I'm still hoping.
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Your statement about doors, chassis etc is just not true. Are there some components built in other countries, of course, but to equate that with a decades old automotive trade deficit with Japan is ludicrous and dishonest.

jammin012 · Feb 14, 2008

I can't wait for it to be built in China, then the Hummer lovers can cry about the Volt being a burden on the environment because of all the lead mined for the paint. Oh and GM can bring back all the cool colors that lead paint gives us. CHINA ROCKS.

hill · Feb 15, 2008

malorn said: ↑

Your statement about doors, chassis etc is just not true. Are there some components built in other countries, of course, but to equate that with a decades old automotive trade deficit with Japan is ludicrous and dishonest.
Click to expand...

So you're saying it's not true, but it's true. Ok. As for the trade deficit, that's what comes from making components in other countries. And, as for the trade deficit, once we worry about the deficit relating to money going (to terrorist countries) out for oil comming in, we'll be on the right track.

malorn · Feb 15, 2008

hill said: ↑

So you're saying it's not true, but it's true. Ok. As for the trade deficit, that's what comes from making components in other countries. And, as for the trade deficit, once we worry about the deficit relating to money going (to terrorist countries) out for oil comming in, we'll be on the right track.
Click to expand...

Did you see my automotive trade numbers from yesterday? Who do you thinnk the US has by far the largest trade deficit with in raw numbers, or a percentage of total trade. I suppose that is GM, Ford, and Chrysler outsourcing parts and cars form Japan?

hill · Feb 15, 2008

I've seen several OTHER #'s you've posted, and never ceased to be amazed how #'s can be skewed to convey what ever you want them to convey.

For instance, recently, in denial, your attempt to post that GM hadn't really slipped off into 2nd place world wide auto producer. That in itself was quite an admittance actually ... I think your OP stated that Toyota would have to wait another year TO BECOME # 1. In essence, even using your skewed stats to prove a falsehood, you acknowledged that Toyota (even if not yet) WILL inevitably be # 1 ... and that's because of a better / more reliable product (HYBRIDS).

You don't seem to mind trading (even at a deficit) with a neighboring city, or county ... or a neighboring state. Who is your your neighbor. The world. Get over it. You can't hide the fact that you're giving evidence of despising your neighbor ... not necessarily the one next door ... or the next county ... but (saying this with an adopted japanese daughter) it simply sounds like you really despise the little yellow man, eh? Maybe you'd like to control the color of OTHER folks too ... maybe the ones who enter the resteraunt you eat at? Your issue is bigger than the trade deficit, me thinks. On the other hand, many don't mind who their world-wide trading neighbors are ... the fact that ME is not getting ALL the money.

malorn · Feb 15, 2008

hill said: ↑

I've seen several OTHER #'s you've posted, and never ceased to be amazed how #'s can be skewed to convey what ever you want them to convey.

For instance, recently, in denial, your attempt to post that GM hadn't really slipped off into 2nd place world wide auto producer. That in itself was quite an admittance actually ... I think your OP stated that Toyota would have to wait another year TO BECOME # 1. In essence, even using your skewed stats to prove a falsehood, you acknowledged that Toyota (even if not yet) WILL inevitably be # 1 ... and that's because of a better / more reliable product (HYBRIDS).

You don't seem to mind trading (even at a deficit) with a neighboring city, or county ... or a neighboring state. Who is your your neighbor. The world. Get over it. You can't hide the fact that you're giving evidence of despising your neighbor ... not necessarily the one next door ... or the next county ... but (saying this with an adopted japanese daughter) it simply sounds like you really despise the little yellow man, eh? Maybe you'd like to control the color of OTHER folks too ... maybe the ones who enter the resteraunt you eat at? Your issue is bigger than the trade deficit, me thinks. On the other hand, many don't mind who their world-wide trading neighbors are ... the fact that ME is not getting ALL the money.
Click to expand...

I guess when your arguments get weak, you can always turn to racism. C'mon Hill, the automotive trade deficit with Japan was over $52 billion dollars, the majority of which is due to the company that tells us they are adding to the US landscape and moving u.s. forward. Do you think for a minute Japan would stand for a trade deficit for 30+years. Not a chance. Do you not realize that as a national economy we are teetering on the brink? Do you think we can continue to have trade deficits at more than 10% of our entire economy? Please drop the xenophobic stuff, this is not about race this is about a level playing field and calling a spade a spade.

hill · Feb 15, 2008

How much protectionism does president malorn want to impose for poor poor GM ... $1,000 per car? $5,000 per car? Who cares if the U.S. beef exporters take it in the shorts when Japan does the same thing, in retaliation ... or citrus growers, or all the products that we try to export to asia. Who cares if in retaliation, all the Chinese items at Wall mart double in price ... as long as president malorn gets to protect GM. The stockholder and the board's shares go up ... and the rest of us (financially) go down, for GM.

Oh, wait! Since we just used protectionism on all Chinese, Korean, and Japanese items, that means all the GM side view mirrors just doubled in price, because in retaliation, that's what they're going to charge GM, in retaliation ... and the electric window components, and some of GM's V8's ... and brake parts, ad infinitum, ad nausium. Great going president malorn. Now the Malibu costs are going to have to go up in price, big time. And the Volt, with its already growing costs (special radio, special wipers) along with (at least) some of its other parts imported from asia, retaliation time ... BOOM $45,000 ?? $50,000 ??

Now, GM has to pass on THOSE higher costs to us ... except who wants lower quality GM stuff. Yea, they're improving a little, but most still remember a lot of GM history. As I'll say below, you ought to study history a little better. Any more bright ideas? No more free market. President malorn wants protectionism for GM.

So which is it you need for GM malorn, racism or protectionism? Perhaps if you go study history, you'll find that when you build boarders to protect against different races, or different businesses, all you do is hurt the majority, and help the powers that put the protectionistic rule into place.

malorn · Feb 16, 2008

hill said: ↑

The stockholder and the board's shares go up ... and the rest of us (financially) go down, for GM.

quote]
You have just proven how little you understand about the economy. The rest of us go down financially? I understand there would be some hardships in certain sectors in the short-run, but overall our economy would boom if the trade deficit was erased. How many jobs do you think would be created in the US if the 4,000,000 vehicles imported into the United States were built here? We were on the short end of the trade stick last year to the tune of $800,000,000,000? In your world is it good to run up credit card debt year after year after year? In many ways we are doing the same thing as a nation.
Click to expand...

hill · Feb 16, 2008

If you think the auto industry is the end-all-beat-all of the deficit, you proove you miss the point. Protectionism DOES screw everyone else, but the protected ones. That's why for GM ... it's all about GM, to the damnation of all.

malorn · Feb 16, 2008

hill said: ↑

If you think the auto industry is the end-all-beat-all of the deficit, you proove you miss the point. Protectionism DOES screw everyone else, but the protected ones. That's why for GM ... it's all about GM, to the damnation of all.
Click to expand...

The auto industry is not the end all, there are all kinds of industries already wiped out or in the process of being wiped out. I am not talking about protectionism, just a level playing field.

hill · Feb 16, 2008

malorn said: ↑

The auto industry is not the end all, there are all kinds of industries already wiped out or in the process of being wiped out. I am not talking about protectionism, just a level playing field.
Click to expand...

So then you already know, it's not jacking up prices on foreign goods comming into the U.S. that'll level the playing field. Let's here YOUR plan to level the field, if not what others have already tried. Try and create such a process, without hurting our exports to an equal amount that you help GM ... this should be good.

C.RICKEY HIROSE · Feb 16, 2008

malorn said: ↑

I guess when your arguments get weak, you can always turn to racism. C'mon Hill, the automotive trade deficit with Japan was over $52 billion dollars, the majority of which is due to the company that tells us they are adding to the US landscape and moving u.s. forward. Do you think for a minute Japan would stand for a trade deficit for 30+years. Not a chance. Do you not realize that as a national economy we are teetering on the brink? Do you think we can continue to have trade deficits at more than 10% of our entire economy? Please drop the xenophobic stuff, this is not about race this is about a level playing field and calling a spade a spade.
Click to expand...

malorn, Let me barge in here, if you may. $52 B deficit in the Automotive sector between Japan and USA.? Japanese consumers are waiting to buy Americas product, 1st America has to produce vehicles matched to that country. Toyota has tried in the past to bring GM's products and try to sell them in Japan for many years, they invested in opening up dealers to carry the GM's products but America does not produce Automobiles catering to the need and taste for customers willing to buy American cars.

Japan imports and consumes many products from USA. For instance: Meat products, Grains, garments, etc. The Japan's self-defence army procures all its warfare products from USA. Gun-ships, Awacs, Tanks,Missiles, Fighter Jets to mention a few. Guess what, Japan spends
not $billions but $trillions of dollars buying from Amaerica. Not from EU countries, if you didn't know that...

Trade-deficit in the Auto sectors may be but due to the reason that America does not provide taylor made Automobiles to its targeted markets, look at the bigger picture, they are losing the world market share 'cause they do not listen to the "consumers of the world" So trade-deficit in the Auto sector is their own fault. Japn's is the most dependable allay of USA, not the Eurepeans, America can live with $52B deficit with Japan as you put it. America is getting their "Money" worth back from Japan....if you didn't know.

Japan's Trade deficit is peanuts comparing to what is happening with China..This is the huge country that everybody has to be watching for the foresseable future. We are going to need another Earth planet to satisfy China. Fearsome, America will be eaten by the $Trillions of dollars very soon...

C.RICKEY HIROSE · Feb 16, 2008

malorn said: ↑

I guess when your arguments get weak, you can always turn to racism. C'mon Hill, the automotive trade deficit with Japan was over $52 billion dollars, the majority of which is due to the company that tells us they are adding to the US landscape and moving u.s. forward. Do you think for a minute Japan would stand for a trade deficit for 30+years. Not a chance. Do you not realize that as a national economy we are teetering on the brink? Do you think we can continue to have trade deficits at more than 10% of our entire economy? Please drop the xenophobic stuff, this is not about race this is about a level playing field and calling a spade a spade.
Click to expand...

malorn, Let me barge in here, if you may. $52 B deficit in the Automotive sector between Japan and USA.? Japanese consumers are waiting to buy Americas product, 1st America has to produce vehicles matched to that country. Toyota has tried in the past to bring GM's products and try to sell them in Japan for many years, they invested in opening up dealers to carry the GM's products but America does not produce Automobiles catering to the need and taste for customers willing to buy American cars.

Japan imports and consumes many products from USA. For instance: Meat products, Grains, garments, etc. The Japan's self-defence army procures all its warfare products from USA. Gun-ships, Awacs, Tanks,Missiles, Fighter Jets to mention a few. Guess what, Japan spends
not $billions but $trillions of dollars buying from Amaerica. Not from EU countries, if you didn't know that...

Trade-deficit in the Auto sectors may be but due to the reason that America does not provide taylor made Automobiles to its targeted markets, look at the bigger picture, they are losing the world market share 'cause they do not listen to the "consumers of the world" So trade-deficit in the Auto sector is their own fault. Japn's is the most dependable allay of USA, not the Eurepeans, America can live with $52B deficit with Japan as you put it. America is getting their "Money" worth back from Japan....if you didn't know.

Japan's Trade deficit is peanuts comparing to what is happening with China..This is the huge country that everybody has to be watching for the foresseable future. We are going to need another Earth planet to satisfy China. Fearsome, America will be eaten by the $Trillions of dollars very soon...

hill · Feb 17, 2008

Hirose, you'll find malorn often repeats the same incorect data, over and over. After doing away with the Japan trade deficit issue, as an unnecessary reason to "level the playing field" (for GM) he'll just bring it up another day ... another time ... hopeing next time, different readers will buy into it. As a smart person, he already knew the truth of your points.

Wallmart's (and other companys) chinese goodies, as both you & I mentioned, don't concern him ... only things more directly related to GM. Once China dials their cars in ... via quality, cost ... THEN it will concern malorn/GM. If he WERE concerned about China he'd be pushing for assurances that GM will build the entire Volt in the U.S. ... 100%. Not just putting the major assemblies together in the U.S. (if/when ever the do build it)

C.RICKEY HIROSE · Feb 17, 2008

hill said: ↑

Hirose, you'll find malorn often repeats the same incorect data, over and over. After doing away with the Japan trade deficit issue, as an unnecessary reason to "level the playing field" (for GM) he'll just bring it up another day ... another time ... hopeing next time, different readers will buy into it. As a smart person, he already knew the truth of your points.

Wallmart's (and other companys) chinese goodies, as both you & I mentioned, don't concern him ... only things more directly related to GM. Once China dials their cars in ... via quality, cost ... THEN it will concern malorn/GM. If he WERE concerned about China he'd be pushing for assurances that GM will build the entire Volt in the U.S. ... 100%. Not just putting the major assemblies together in the U.S. (if/when ever the do build it)
Click to expand...

hill-san.

Totally agree with you. Here is what I heard from Toyota USA head brass.
(He was addressing to Toyota US body )

We do not _fear_Americas_Auto-Makers anymore, We fear the Koreans and next, the Chinese for supremacy on the world Automobile market competition. Those countries will be our strongest competition and we have to be watching them very closely.

We have to up the Entre, we have to strive even harder to perfect our products that caters to our customers. We have to provide what the buying public wants. We _Have to Listen_ to our customers.

Toyota listens, The Big Three= no more, will not listen.

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