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Hefty GM hybrids could boost automaker

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by FloridaWen, Oct 8, 2007.

  1. FloridaWen

    FloridaWen New Member

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    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21016575/?GT1=10450

    Hefty GM hybrids could boost automaker
    Chevy Tahoe, GMC Yukon get impressive mileage; ‘halo’ effect seen
    By Roland Jones
    Associate editor
    Updated: 3:52 p.m. ET Oct 3, 2007

    General Motors took a major step forward last week in its bid to boost its fading fortunes, but it’s probably not the one you’re thinking of.

    True, GM clinched a new four-year labor contract with striking United Auto Workers that, if ratified by union members, could put the automaker on more even footing with its Asian rivals. But in a less noticed-move that ultimately could prove nearly as important, GM provided new details about the industry's first full-size hybrid gas-and-electric-powered sport utility vehicles, which will appear on dealers’ lots in late December.

    The new hybrid versions of the Chevy Tahoe and GMC Yukon will offer an impressive 21 miles per gallon in city driving and 22 miles per gallon on the highway, according to official mileage estimates from the Environmental Protection Agency, issued Thursday. That’s a 30 percent gain in overall fuel economy and 50 percent for city driving, making the new SUVs as fuel-efficient in the city as a four-cylinder Toyota Camry.

    Although sales of large SUVs have taken a hit in recent years as gasoline prices have risen, with once-popular models seeing big production cuts and buyers flocking to so-called “crossover†vehicles, many buyers still want a large vehicle or one with the ability to tow large loads. A strong reception for the new hybrid SUVs could help boost sales of other GM vehicles by creating a “halo†effect for the company, said Tom Appel, editor of Consumer Guide Automotive, which offers buying advice to car shoppers.

    GM could use a halo effect as it markets important new sedans such as the Saturn Aura, midsize Cadillac CTS and forthcoming Chevy Malibu.

    “GM has been heavily reliant on fleet sales and they need to get into consumer retail more,†Appel said. “And this is the sort of good news that helps you sell product overall.â€

    Good product is vital to GM’s success. The automaker has reduced capacity, pared its workforce, shut plants and scored a victory with its union deal on health care, which removes some $50 billion in health-care liabilities from its books. Now GM is relying on some hit new models to drive up sales and revenue.

    Sales of GM’s top brands of Buick, Cadillac and Chevy are down sharply so far this year. Only the GMC and Saturn brands are showing a gain. GM has low sales projections for its two hybrid SUVs, but their impact could still be significant, Appel said.

    “[These new hybrid SUVs] might not be the one product that contributes to GM’s financial success, but I think they will contribute to GM’s overall renaissance,†he said. “The ability to take a very heavy vehicle and give it really good fuel economy speaks volumes about GM’s reinvestment in its products and future products.â€

    Jointly developed with BMW and DaimlerChrysler, GM’s “two-mode†hybrid system could lead to a revitalization of SUV sales. It also reportedly will be featured on GM’s full-size pick-up trucks in 2009 as well as the Dodge Durango, Chrysler Aspen, Mercedes-Benz ML and BMW’s X6 SUVs.

    The “two-mode†system allows the Yukon and Tahoe to travel using electrical power at speeds up to 30 mph before the gas engine kicks in, while GM’s “Active Fuel Management†system saves additional fuel by disengaging half of the engine’s cylinders when full power is not required. GM also improved aerodynamics and reduced the weight of some components to offset the added weight of the hybrid battery pack.

    Large SUVs are excellent candidate for hybrid drive, notes Karl Brauer, editor in chief at automotive research site Edmunds.com. Heavy vehicles use large amounts of gas moving from a standing start to 5 mph, but hybrids use stored electricity to get rolling, so that gas is saved.

    “I think these vehicles will be really important,†Brauer said. “Even before the price of gas went up people were wondering if these big SUVs were a fad, but I think the genie is out of the bottle. Americans have been spoiled with big, roomy utilitarian vehicles, and I don’t think they want to give them up, even with the price of gas going up. They don’t want to give up on space and don’t want to burn too much fuel. So the ultimate fulfillment of all these needs is a high-mileage, fuel-efficient SUV, and that is what GM is going after with these two SUVs.â€

    Brauer expects hybrid technology to become more common in American vehicles, much as fuel-injection technology has become common.


    “I think hybrid drive trains are the next fuel injection,†he said. “The technology helps performance and fuel economy, and as the technology shrinks and the battery and motors become smaller they will become ubiquitous. We are at a point now where you can add fuel injection to any old car, and I see that coming for hybrid technology.â€

    The hybrid Tahoe and Yukon could even revitalize sales in the SUV segment, said Aaron Bragman, an analyst at consultancy Global Insight.

    “Given Americans’ historical love affair with large vehicles, offering SUVs that achieve mileage comparable to a midsize sedan could be just the ticket to breathing new life into a segment many had written off as doomed,†he said in a research note.
     
    #1 FloridaWen, Oct 8, 2007
  2. IsrAmeriPrius

    IsrAmeriPrius Progressive Member

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    #2 IsrAmeriPrius, Oct 8, 2007
  3. dogfriend

    dogfriend Human - Animal Hybrid

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    Now that I own a Prius, 21 mpg is not "impressive mileage". :p
     
    #3 dogfriend, Oct 8, 2007
  4. Jonnycat26

    Jonnycat26 New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dogfriend @ Oct 8 2007, 10:49 AM) [snapback]522701[/snapback]</div>
    I guess it is if you own a Camry... the Tahoe Hybird equals or beats the 2008 Camry's city mileage ratings.
     
    #4 Jonnycat26, Oct 8, 2007
  5. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Yea, they get impressive mileage when driven in the city. On the highway, not so good... compare to the non-hybrid version. How much better when hauling or towing? I thought that is the reason / purpose why some people buy these type of vechicles.

    Something is not right here and I doubt there will be a halo effect. 2-mode will not allow owner to tow higher payload. It may save some gas for hauling or towing application. Why isn't GM advertising / educating how much gas the owner will save? Why focus on the city mileage? A car like Prius can get about 3 times better already.

    If 2-mode hybrids get 1 MPG more while hauling or towing, then is it worth it? Will it pay for itself? :) The technology of 2-mode hybrid saves the most gas in the situation/environment where the owner will be the least likely to use the vehicle! Brilliant!

    For the environmental motives, how much greener are these 2-modes? No mention of the lower emission improvements. Brilliant!

    How about for better performance? Nope, brilliant! From what I've read, the performance is going to be the same as non-hybrid version. There may be better braking performance despite increase in weight.

    If they are expecting a halo effect based on the city mileage, I wouldn't bet on it.
     
    #5 usbseawolf2000, Oct 8, 2007
  6. hycamguy07

    hycamguy07 New Member

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    Hmm thats 10mpg less than my hycam..

    Nissan Altima: (std) Estimates: 26 mpg / 34 mpg; Range in Miles: 520 mi. / 680 mi. / $18,230-$28,280

    HyCam: City: 33 mpg/ Hwy: 34 mpg / $25,200-$35,400

    Chevy Tahoe: 14 mpg / 19 mpg

    Chevy Tahoe: 21mpg city / 22 mpg highway

    Not to forgot the new Hy-Malibu or the saturn Hy sedan..
     
    #6 hycamguy07, Oct 8, 2007
  7. JackDodge

    JackDodge Gold Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hycamguy07 @ Oct 8 2007, 11:11 AM) [snapback]522709[/snapback]</div>
    Turning a gas guzzler that theoretically gets 19 mpg at best in to a hybrid that theoretically gets a little better than that is a baby step. If the guzzler shuts off at stops and has regenerative braking, it is a baby step in the right direction but it's kind of like having a leak in the dike and coming out with a new and improved leak. Big deal. Most guzzler drivers drive aggressively and impatiently which means with the gasoline only Tahoe they're probably getting 8 to 10 mpg so moving up to a hybrid will get them, maybe, 12. Whoopty flippin' do. The usual reaction is "well it's better than nothing" but that's saying very little. What this country needs isn't hybrid gas guzzlers; what it needs is some leadership to get people to stop guzzling, stop wasting and start thinking about their actions and the impact of those actions on the country's security and independence.
     
    #7 JackDodge, Oct 8, 2007
  8. malorn

    malorn Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Oct 8 2007, 10:09 AM) [snapback]522707[/snapback]</div>
    I have always wondered what kind of mileage a Prius would get if it was not a hybrid. Would it be any better on the highway?
     
    #8 malorn, Oct 8, 2007
  9. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Oct 8 2007, 09:29 AM) [snapback]522746[/snapback]</div>
    If I had to guess, probably slightly better than the Yaris (just because it's more aerodynamic than the Yaris)
     
    #9 Tideland Prius, Oct 8, 2007
  10. JSH

    JSH Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JackDodge @ Oct 8 2007, 10:57 AM) [snapback]522732[/snapback]</div>
    Going from 16 mpg combined to 21 mpg combined is a HUGE deal. It may be only 5 mpg but that is a 32% increase in fuel economy. Lets take a hypothetical driver that drives the typical 15,000 miles per year at the EPA’s typical 55% city / 45% highway split. The person with the standard Tahoe would use 923 gallons of gasoline per year. The person with the Hybrid Tahoe would use 699 gallons of gasoline per year. That is a savings of 224 gallons of gas per year! That is a BIG DEAL. If all the 1.5 million full size truck sold each year got 21 mpg combined instead of 16 mpg it would save 336 million gallons of gasoline every year.

    If you switched from a Corolla that got 35 mpg combined to a Prius that gets 45 mpg combine that would be 10 mpg or a 29% increase in fuel economy. That is great, twice as good as the Tahoe, but you would only reduce your gasoline use 96 gallons per year.

    As long has we have large vehicles on the road it is imperative to increase the fuel mileage. When you are talking vehicle such as SUV and Truck with low fuel economy, even a 1 or 2 mpg increase in fuel economy can equal a huge reduction in fuel consumption.
     
    #10 JSH, Oct 8, 2007
  11. JackDodge

    JackDodge Gold Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Oct 8 2007, 12:59 PM) [snapback]522766[/snapback]</div>
    32% increase in nothing is still nothing, and, based on the way I see most Tahoe drivers behaving around here, I doubt that any of them are getting 16 mpg.
     
    #11 JackDodge, Oct 8, 2007
  12. malorn

    malorn Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Oct 8 2007, 11:59 AM) [snapback]522766[/snapback]</div>
    Many more than 1.5 million pickup trucks and full-size SUV's are sold in the US every year so the differnece would be far greater.
     
    #12 malorn, Oct 8, 2007
  13. JSH

    JSH Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Oct 8 2007, 12:38 PM) [snapback]522786[/snapback]</div>
    True, 1.5M is only Ford F Series and GM trucks (Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra). That doesn't include Dodge, Toyota, or Nissan, which puts just the full-size trucks at about 2 million per year. That is not counting SUV's. I'm not going to turn my noise up at the U.S. saving half a billion gallons of gasoline per year.

    I don't argue with the new EPA figures, they have been right on for my Prius and low for my VW TDI. I would say the new EPA figures are pretty close to what the average person will get.
     
    #13 JSH, Oct 8, 2007
  14. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Oct 8 2007, 12:29 PM) [snapback]522746[/snapback]</div>
    Allion which was based from the same platform as Prius get pretty low mileage. Allion was meant for different market anyway. Another car that also based from the same platform is Scion tC. You can sort of comapre with that.
    My educated guess would be about Corolla highway MPG. Prius frontal area is bigger but the body is more aerodynamic. Prius is heavier but tires are thinner.

    The beauty of HSD is the passing responsiveness at highway speed.... no shift lag nor clutch lag that could be an issue in 2-mode. HSD always generates electricity (PSD always splits power when the ICE is on), hence it is 100% E-CVT at all time. When time come to pass a car, it does not need to change mode.... 2-mode has to switch from the mechancal mode back to E-CVT or change a gear.

    In 2-mode, it seems harder to hit the sweet spot in the highway. Two planets have to align. The first planet is the speed at 70 mph. The second planet is the light engine load to shutdown 4 cylinders from the V8. In HSD, engine simply rotate slower and the VVTi retard to a certain angle (Atkinson cycle) and that's it.
     
    #14 usbseawolf2000, Oct 8, 2007
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