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Hello Fellow Auto Enthusiasts..

Discussion in 'Newbie Forum' started by fdcapt, Nov 28, 2009.

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  1. fdcapt

    fdcapt New Member

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    Allow me to introduce my self... My name is mike i live in southern ohio and do to the good nature of one of your mods i am no longer banned.

    I was invited here a few days ago and promptly banned however that is old news... I am not here to pound my chest and give the "mine is bigger then yours" type attitude. I find your choice of vehicles very respectful and only hope to receive the same in return. So please dont view me as another diesel owner trying to cause trouble... I can assure you that is my very last intention. I hope to be able to come here and learn as well as maybe provide some insight into not only the diesel community but as well as the firefighter/ems community.

    I hope my stay here is well received and not short lived, that last thing i want is anymore venom spewed between our communities. All i ask is this and i will in return do the same, is that if someone asks me for a point of view or even when i provide direct reference to a certain issue reguarding fire/hazmat safety please research your reply before you call me everything but french toast. I am not here to degrade anyones knowledge or choices, i am here to simply allow any insight i can that some, not all here, may not already know.

    So once again i say thank you for allowing me onto YOUR forums and hope my stay is well received and welcome.
     
    #1 fdcapt, Nov 28, 2009
  2. spiderman

    spiderman wretched

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    Welcome Mike. Just out of curiosity what is you background in the EMS/FD (e.g. certs, years, etc)?

    In this time, have you ever responded to a situation involving a hybrid? Did you have any specific training on such?

    Thanks and have a great day!
    Peter
     
    #2 spiderman, Nov 28, 2009
  3. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    Welcome back.
    To the PC regulars...no baiting or calling of names will be tolerated.
    To FDcapt-we ask the same of you that you ask of us. Telling us a local FD/EMS policy and equating that to fact is not acceptable. If you want to talk about Prius/hybrid safety issues/concerns you, too, need to provide well researched data. Certainly your experience and background count for something, but in this brave new world of hybrids and EVs I think your direct knowledge of these vehicles and their safety issues is little better, if any, than many of ours. We've discussed and taught about these issues for many years and expect the same level of respect for our knowledge that you request of us.
     
    #3 efusco, Nov 28, 2009
  4. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    Hello Mike,

    Things were pretty crazy on this forum for a few days. I'm sorry to hear that you had some trouble.

    Welcome to PriusChat!

    Tom
     
    #4 qbee42, Nov 28, 2009
  5. fdcapt

    fdcapt New Member

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    my backround is as follows
    state certified 240 firefighter (highest classroom level attained in my state)
    National registry emt-P (paramedic)
    State certified hazmat technician
    Nationally certified dive and swift water rescue rescue.
    Nationally certified search and rescue commander/instructor
    and literally hundreds of other specific classes and such.

    as for experience, i have been a "medic" for 14 years(emt-b cert). I started off as a medic on active duty army (reserves now). After 7 years of active duty (damn stop loss) i came back home joined the reserves and then pursued my career in fire fighting and have been a fire fighter for 7 years. I am only 32 years old as well so i have honestly dedicated my whole adult life to this lifestyle and enjoy every split second of it.

    As for have i ever had to respond to an accident with a hybrid vehicle the answer is yes.. Twice in the past 18 months.

    The first was a prius. Head on (quarter to quarter) at appx 45-55 mph with a chevy tahoe. 2 occupants in the prius one was medflighted with severe HNB trauma and the other was taken to the local hospital with a broken tib/fib and hip fracture. was an ugly scene but honestly the prius' (occupant zone) or in simple terms the drivers compartment was very in tact just severely damaged from the simple laws of physics. Both occupants lived and are as far as i know alive and recovered. One of the biggest issues with this wreck is not all if not even many of the smaller departments do not have the up to date training and knowledge on how to deal with hybrid vehicles and ultimately i was called to the accident by a neighboring dept do to my knowledge on these select vehicles, it was not even my call i simple provided mutual aid. There was no leakage at this accident from the fuel cell however do to the unknowns a hazmat team was dispatched.

    2nd was an insight vs tree. Occupant killed on impact car literally split in two.. When dispatched i arrived on the scene as the very first repsonder. as soon as i made contact with the victim he was already code 16 (dead). and before any attempt to retrieve the body from the wreck was made a hazmat team from an hour and a half away had to come and secure the site. there was a bunch of leakage and alot of the earth had to be excavated.


    and as im typping this i just got called on a code 4 (auto accident)... ill be back in a bit to answer more questions..
     
    #5 fdcapt, Nov 28, 2009
  6. spiderman

    spiderman wretched

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    Awesome! Thanks for your military service and as a first responder. It will be great to have this knowledge on available on here.
    When I bought the Prius this summer I never even considered any implications during a wreck. I know the car has many fail safe systems so I don't unsafe but it is good that first responders know about them too. As more of these cars hit the roads, I hope more detail information is made available to you all.

    My sister is a police officer and my brother and ex-brother in-law where volunteers fd.

    Peter
     
    #6 spiderman, Nov 28, 2009
  7. patsparks

    patsparks An Aussie perspective

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    Welcome back Mike, I hope things go a bit smoother this time around.
     
    #7 patsparks, Nov 28, 2009
  8. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    Interesting comparing an offset crash of a Tahoe to a Prius. I wonder how a Tahoe and Cobalt would have done? Or a Tahoe to Tahoe?

    I'm just curious, how many EMS/rescue workers have been killed by airbags? Now that most new vehicles, like the Prius and even my FJ, have head curtain and side impact airbags, what happens if the rescue worker has to cut the roof off to extract the trapped passengers?

    Regarding hazmat, up here they are automatically called if the following is spilled: diesel fuel, gasoline, antifreeze, battery acid (Sulfuric acid), battery alkaline (Hybrid car, potassium hydroxide), and brake fluid

    A pop quiz: you are called to an unusual scene. A passenger car is parked in a big box parking lot, engine idling. The occupant was reported to have had seizures and profuse bubbly white foam is coming from his mouth

    As the rescue worker, what do you do?

    Oh, and I should point out that your life will very much depend on having the correct answer
     
    #8 jayman, Nov 28, 2009
  9. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    Oh, all the windows are tightly closed. No further information on scene
     
    #9 jayman, Nov 28, 2009
  10. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    Are these smaller fd's also trained to know how to properly deal with head and side curtain seat-mounted airbags? How about the pytotechnic charge in the self-tightening seatbelts that many new cars, such as the Prius and my FJ Cruiser, have?

    You mean gas tank, right? Anytime a gasoline or diesel fuel spill happens up here, a Hazmat team is dispatched

    Well, since the occupant was code 16, what was the rush? At that point, the safety of the rescue crew is top priority

    What "leakage?" Gasoline? Engine coolant? Potassium hydroxide? Sulfuric acid? Brake fluid?

    Under ideal conditions, windshield washer fluid poses a severe fire risk, especially the stuff we use up here rated for -40 and colder. That could be upwards of 60% methanol

    Under ideal conditions, engine coolant is also a fire risk

    http://cjbfire.com/Heatsoak.pdf

    AUTOMOBILE ENGINE COOLANT RELATED FIRES

    http://www.reifire.net/text/ethylene.pdf

    Since I have a lot of experience as a chemical engineer in the petrochemical industry, I'm not in the least bit concerned about hybrid cars. I've been around plenty of things far more dangerous
     
    #10 jayman, Nov 28, 2009
  11. fdcapt

    fdcapt New Member

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    ever decision we make in the fire/ems community pretty much someones life depends on having the correct answer or at least being able to be proactive at all times. as the capt of my dept (battalion chief eq to most depts) every person on one of my scenes life is in my hands and the decisions i make. I would never ever ask one of my men or women to do anything i would not do myself.
     
    #11 fdcapt, Nov 28, 2009
  12. fdcapt

    fdcapt New Member

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    yes
    when i said leakage i was reffering to typical fluid leakage not from the fuel cell (batter cell) in itself however the integrity of the cell was breached but no spillage from the cell itself. the fail safes that have been taken by the hybrid manufacturers are quite tedious however for most hybrid cells to actually contaminate it would take a SEVERE impact.. however it is very possible for it to happen...as i stated in the insight wreck... btw the driver of the insight we later found out his BAC was .23... thats almost 4 times the legal limit
     
    #12 fdcapt, Nov 28, 2009
  13. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    It's VERY annoying to have to read your responses within a block of quote

    Regarding the "baited" question I asked, I actually borrowed directly from a FEMA email. I regularly receive FEMA and Homeland Security bulletins, as I'm also involved in Critical Infrastructure Protection. You'd be surprised how many engineers are

    This particular FEMA bulletin referenced a warning from JEMS about the danger poised to EMS and Rescue personnel on scene, in the event of purposeful or accidental ingestion of certain organophosphates or pesticides

    You may reference the following to assist in how you would have handled that hypothetical "baited" situation I created

    http://www.jems.com/Images/03 Intro...f;jsessionid=56E3E72A8C5A02A9A017925A085B5EBD

    Dozens sickened in Japan after suicide

    FirefighterCloseCalls.Com - Home of the Secret List

    I hope I don't come across as a smart nice person questioning your judgment. Just as I hope others don't see any sort of anti-hybrid bias in your responses. But I've given lectures locally to critical personnel on this very topic

    The degree of misinformation is frightening
     
    #13 jayman, Nov 28, 2009
  14. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    No loss. Shovel the corpus up, and be thankful that no innocent child was killed as a result
     
    #14 jayman, Nov 28, 2009
  15. fdcapt

    fdcapt New Member

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    if you read my answer i clearly stated that once i deemed the scene safe one of the very first avenues of action i would take is treat it as a possible contamination/poisoning. as emergency workers we are not allowed to nor do we have the ability to ever diagnose a patient. we simply play the hand that is dealt to us and do it to the best of our ability and training.
     
    #15 fdcapt, Nov 28, 2009
  16. DaveFDEMS

    DaveFDEMS New Member

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    I agree 100% with every one of fdcapts responses
     
    #16 DaveFDEMS, Nov 28, 2009
  17. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    I just find it interesting that hybrid vehicles in general are viewed as these incredibly dangerous items to Rescue personnel.

    What is uniquely hazardous in a hybrid vehicle (Prius, Ford Escape Hybrid, Chevy Silvorado hybrid truck, etc) that isn't already present in the average brand new vehicle?

    1. Head curtain and seat-mounted side impact airbags?

    2. Electric assist power brakes?

    3. NiMH battery case?

    4. HV cables between battery case and inverter/converter?

    5. Self tightening seatbelts with pyrotechnic charges?

    Point 1: Many new vehicles, certainly almost 100% of luxury imports, have head curtain and seat mounted airbags. An extraction, especially roof removal, requires special training and caution. I would like to hope that fire departments have received this training already

    Point 2: The brakes could remain pressurized, if a brake line is cut during extraction then a rescue worker could get a healthy squirt of brake fluid into the eyes or mouth.

    Not just the Prius uses electric assist power brakes. My FJ Cruiser also has them

    Point 3. The metal can of the battery case does help protect the individual cells. The individual cells do not contain free electrolyte, its a paste. There is a primary fuse on the busbar inside the case, where the individual cells are hooked up: a dead short blows the non-serviceable primary fuse

    A severe enough crash that completely ruptures the case and individual cells, most likely the occupants are Code 16/Code 50 (DOA) anyway. In the event of such a crash, the electrolyte, potassium hydroxide, is no more hazardous than a ruptured conventional battery with sulfuric acid.

    Under NFPA 704, KOH is usually rated 3-0-1. H2SO4 is rated 3-0-2

    Appropriate rescue clothing and precautions should be used in the presence of both materials. The correct training goes a long way here

    Point 4. The HV cables can potentially carry 208 vdc. The cables are only live if the startup sequence passes a logic test, a basic self diagnostic. There is a master relay that is normally open, that supplies power from the NiMH battery case to the cables. Once 12 vdc power is lost, the relay opens

    In the event any airbag deploys, the relay is automatically cut. This is based on the design that BMW has used for a long time, in the event of a crash and airbag opening, a pyrotechnic charge severs the battery positive cable

    There is also a GFCI monitor that looks for leakage to the body shell, either at the M/G, the cable integrity, or the battery case. Any detected current leakage, the relay is opened.

    There have been some issues with the relay staying open anyway, due to GFCI issues, which leaves the Prius dead

    Point 5: Many new vehicles have pyrotechnic charges to take up slack in the front occupant seatbelt reel, including my FJ Cruiser. Appropriate training is essential here
     
    #17 jayman, Nov 28, 2009
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  18. spiderman

    spiderman wretched

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    Very enlightening, thanks.
     
    #18 spiderman, Nov 28, 2009
  19. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    Exactly Jayman. Any overly paranoid local policies that suggest that special training, personnel or time delays are necessary in the event of a hybrid accident are based upon fear and ignorance, not fact or research.
     
    #19 efusco, Nov 28, 2009
  20. DaveFDEMS

    DaveFDEMS New Member

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    The HV cables for one are not present in a standard ICE vehicle.

    The airbag locations you mentioned while not exclusive to hybrids in some vehicles are dangers simply because they are not marked as having airbags present.

    As to your comment about the normally open relays. Relays fail. If you dont believe me I will scan and show you pictures of my friend and fellow firefighter Brad. It was one instance where we didnt follow the 12 minute rule. The key was removed from the area. The power was disconnected he went to extricate one of the vehicles occupants and the airbag deployed knocking his helmet off and breaking his right cheekbone.

    While it may be an isolated occurance it does happen. Relays fail all the time. Ask any Ford 7.3 owner about the relay that controls the glow plug system. Many of them get replaced yearly
     
    #20 DaveFDEMS, Nov 28, 2009
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