Honda Accord Hybrid: 50 MPG City - clone Toyota

Discussion in 'Honda/Acura Hybrids and EVs' started by bwilson4web, Sep 8, 2013.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    We often see 'optimistic' mileage claims posted here but this one sounds credible. Honda has never had a problem with credible mileage, optimistic goals but they didn't pull a "Ford." So this sounded pretty good:
    Source: Honda Accord Hybrid Hits 50 – MPG, That Is | TheDetroitBureau.com

    Now this is impressive performance begging the question, how:
    Source: Green Car Congress: Honda details development of powertrain components for Accord plug-in hybrid

    The rest of the GreenCarCongress is like reading the Toyota SAE papers on the 2010 Prius. The one thing Honda brought was an advanced valve system beyond what we see in the Prius models.

    We're looking a Camry hybrid killer with awesome performance. I don't know when (or if) Toyota will do something with the Camry hybrid but the Honda Accord is serious competition. When it finally goes on sale, I suspect the usual, three month sales burst will be slow to moderate.

    Now if Honda can slip that drive train into their minivan . . . <sigh>

    Bob Wilson
     
  2. Chuck.

    Chuck. Former Honda Enzyte Driver

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    Hope it's there and just did not see it. Is this Honda's IMA system or a new hybrid system? I'm really hoping for the latter and not the former.
     
  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    gen II hycam is already here. did you miss it? my wife is at 47.8 mpg on the screen after 450 miles this tank. we'll see what accord real world numbers are.:rolleyes:
     
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  4. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    It is different with a CVT using two motors. The GreenCarCongress is not clear but I get the impression it is not the old cone-CVT. It reads like the Toyota system . . . a patent claimed by Paice in 1994. Depending upon the type of patent:
    • 2011 = 1994 + 17 :: shortest duration
    • 2014 = 1994 + 20 :: longest duration
    So it looks like the patent has run out. YEAAAHHHH!!!!

    Bob Wilson
     
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  5. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    I always figured that Honda's IMA would be a low cost hybrid alternative but it never turned out that way. It will be interesting to see if Honda can compete with Toyota on price with a full hybrid offering.
     
  6. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

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    I like Honda, I've owned Hondas.
    I really hope that the New Hybrid Accord lives up to the claims and becomes a great product.

    But it seems to me that out of the gate, isn't the entire race.

    One thing about Prius, Toyota and HSD, is it's the most proven full Hybrid system available.

    I think the proof about the new Accord comes after it has been sold and owned in some numbers and after the system has been vetted by some real world existence and performance over a period of time. Not weeks, or months...but years.

    Seems Honda has landed a potential blow, and gotten a good start out of the gate with this latest Hybrid attempt. But there is a lot of "new" in the description.

    I have no reason to doubt Honda's claims as far as performance. But there are other factors that can only be determined with time. Such as reliability, and longevity of performance.

    I'm in no way trashing Honda here. But I think I'd admit to enjoying the luxury of NOT being part of the first generation of owners.

    I really hope Honda has gotten it right. But initial claims, real or unreal from Honda, are only the first wave of definition. Proof comes with time.

    Honda is good at what they do. I'd be optimistic. But they held on to IMA way too long, and in my personal opinion the Insight was way too conservative and unprogressive a product to ever garner too much success. Seems like Honda has learned. How that lesson translates into product on the street and in peoples garages? Remains to be seen.
     
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  7. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    It's their new two motor Sport Hybrid system. Picture a serial hybrid car that can couple the genset ICE to the drive train at highway speeds.

    IMA is dead, and will be replaced with the one motor Sport Hybrid system in the models with IMA now. It has a couple of clutches over IMA that allow a disconnect between the motor and ICE now. Honda is also dropping the CVT and going with a 6 speed double clutch transmission.
     
  8. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Bob, did they give details of the bsfc curve or best g/kwh (thermal efficiency)?

    Combined mpg appears to be the same as ford fusion hybrid -47mpg, but ford used the derived test (2 cycle with math fudge factor). Numbers are not up yet on fueleconomy.gov, so I can't tell if its derived or actual 5 cycle testing. Camry Hybrid is actual. YMMV. Even if the new Accord "only" gets the real world mpg of the camry hybrid this is a great additional choice, and should grow the hybrid market share.
     
  9. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    It is a eCVT, but not like Toyota's. There doesn't appear to be a PSD. Which would make it less mechanically complex.

    Correction to the previous post; the transmission is a 7 speed not 6.
     
  10. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    How can a 7 speed transmission possibly be less complex than a PSD ? Actually, how can anything be less complex than the Toyota HSD transmission ?

    The added complexity and cost of two electric motors in the HSD is offset by the simple PSD. Stuffing a complex and expensive (and who knows if reliable) 6 or 7 gear transmission in instead of the PSD makes NO sense to me.
     
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  11. Aerolite

    Aerolite Junior Member

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    Props to Honda! Seems as that they have rectified their mistake in terms of hybrid production this time around. While I am infatuated with the 1st Gen. Insight, avid hypermilers are hardly thew average car market. Toyota has not just captured the compact/5-door market, but in some ways created a category all of it's own. My Prius rides as high as most cross over-suv's, yet is shorter... creating an 'unique' drive environment. The current Prius feels like a high-mpg car first that comes with a solid deal of utility. Hopefully Honda's new accord hybrid will capture the market wanting a solid comfy car first, that happens to also get high mpg.

    I have never owned a Honda (only Toyota/Lexus), but hopefully this makes them squirm enough to further refine the future Prius.

    1st we need a plug-in version with at least a 120 mile range on full EV... ;);)
    Seriously though, as the car that defined fuel economy for the gas-burning US, it only seems appropriate for it to get an extensive electric treatment.
     
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  12. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Do you have any ready references that might have more details on their eCVT?

    I don't mind buying the SAE papers but perhaps there is a credible synopsis out there?

    Bob Wilson
     
  13. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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  14. Stevevee

    Stevevee Active Member

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    I'd like to think Honda was particularly careful about their mileage Ratings with the Ford debacle. Honda has a 50 city/45 highway/ 47 combined rating. Hardly anyone on earth achieves those numbers out of the Fusion Hybrid. Honda also has an all-new Fit and Fit Hybrid out.

    If the Accord is priced competitively, it will sell very, very well. I already like the Accord better than any other family sedan, the hybrid version only makes it better.
     
  15. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    It was from speculation in this thread, 2014 Honda Accord Hybrid Gets 49 MPG in City Driving | PriusChat on the diagrams on this page, http://www.honda.co.jp/ACCORD/webcatalog/performance/details01/
    As far as I know, Honda hasn't released an English version of the page.

    Honda has multiple hybrid systems coming out to replace their IMA. My comment about less complex was about one, and the 7 speed was concerning another.
    Here's Honda's original press release, Honda Worldwide | November 13, 2012 &quot;Honda Develops New Lightweight and Compact Hybrid System Named "SPORT HYBRID Intelligent Dual Clutch Drive"&quot;

    The one motor one can be thought of has the direct descendent of IMA, and will used in the smaller hybrids to keep costs low. It is like Hyundai's system, in which the motor and ICE can be physically decoupled, which improves motor efficiency over the IMA. The system just adds a motor, and a transmission is still needed. With IMA, it was a manual or CVT. Honda is using a 7 speed dual clutch one with the new system.

    There is a SH-AWD system that appears to be performance oriented for the Acuras. It appears to be the one motor system driving the front wheels, with two motors at the rear wheels.

    The two motor system is their full hybrid, and what is used in the plug in and non-plug Accord hybrids. It appears to be a serial hybrid that can have the ICE couple in without a mechanical transmission between to directly. There is no PSD to blend the two motors and ICE together like in the HSD.
     
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  16. southernguy

    southernguy Junior Member

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  17. sURFNmADNESS

    sURFNmADNESS Prii Family

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    Fueleconomy.gov only list a PlugIn Accord Hybrid and it is only getting 46 Combined, 47 City & 46 Hwy. Seems strange that a plugin would get less. I smell something Fordy, errr, fishy. Honda does not have a good track record with their previous Civic Hybrid numbers. Lets hope they can improve on correct numbers this time.
     
  18. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    The definition of FULL requires a device to blend & split. Without that, it's partial... since it doesn't deliver the full range of abilities.

    With the second motor and a clutch or two, it will obviously provide more than their ASSIST hybrids. Cost & Complexity is a concern though. It will be harder to be competitive with those extra burdens.
     
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  19. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Where is this definition of full hybrid?
    The ones I'm finding only state that a full hybrid is one that can propel itself under electric only. Without any differation on how it is done.
    Full Hybrid: Overview
    Hybrid vehicle drivetrain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Definition of Full Hybrid - What is a Full Hybrid
    Tech Tuesdays India: Micro vs Mild vs Full Hybrid & Regenerative Braking

    This is the only hit I got for partial hybrid in regards to the automobile. Seems to just be a synonym for mild hybrid. Which the new Accord is not.
    Partial hybrids offer emissions compromise | News | The Engineer
     
  20. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Go back to the beginning, in the days of the classic model when the term was first coined.

    Delivering electric-only drive at times was only one of many criteria. The system also needed to be able to both create & consume electricity at the same time, allowing for propulsion from engine & motor without the use of the battery-pack as well as being able to draw from it. In other words, there was no ability not delivered. It was every possible energy path was available... hence full.

    In other words, it was a system that could seek out a very wide-array of efficiency opportunities.
     
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