Honda Accord Hybrid: 50 MPG City - clone Toyota

Discussion in 'Honda/Acura Hybrids and EVs' started by bwilson4web, Sep 8, 2013.

  1. roamerr

    roamerr Member

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    7 speed dual clutch? I hope it's now like the VW DSG. That is a durability nightmare...
     
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  2. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    So I found this open article at the SAE web site:
    Source: Honda's 2014 plug-in hybrid Accord has three drive modes

    It also looks like they may still be using their mechanical CVT:
    Source: NAIAS 2012: New Honda Accord to feature next-gen powertrains including plug-in hybrid

    The relevant SAE papers (not read,) yet:
    • 2013-01-0365 - "Development of High-Efficiency New CVT for Midsize Vehicle"
    • 2013-01-1476 - "Development of a New Two-Motor Plug-In Hybrid System"
    Then I found this little gem:
    • 2013-01-0367 - "Development of Ratio Control System for Toyota's New Continuously Variable Transmission
    Source: Development of Ratio Control System for Toyota's New Continuously Variable Transmission

    This may be a route Toyota is taking for the next improvement in Prius performance.

    Bob Wilson
     
  3. Aerolite

    Aerolite Junior Member

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    This is like arguing why we should call specks on an apple "spots"... look, if it goes... has a specialized battery + motor unit, uses it to drive the it's a damn hybrid.
     
  4. 2k1Toaster

    2k1Toaster Brand New Prius Batteries

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    Lets hope Honda has learned that they can't treat the battery like a punching bag to eek out a couple extra MPGs for a couple years and then kill it like they have done with all their previous hybrids up until a year or two ago.
     
  5. 2k1Toaster

    2k1Toaster Brand New Prius Batteries

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    I hope not. The simplicity and beauty of the HSD is not something to be messed with.
     
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  6. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    A few of us have speculated about the addition of a clutching mechanism to 'lock-up' the PSD. Given a typical 90-95% efficiency each for the generator and motor, you're looking at 81-90% efficiency through the electrical path. So this suggests 10-19% loss for the power that takes the electrical path.

    Thankfully, only 28% of the power takes this 10-19% path, a 2.8-5.3% loss. This is equivalent to a pair of extra gear stages. In theory, a clutch in the PSD that gives a mechanical path and bypasses the electrical path might save this loss. But we really need to see the SAE paper to understand what the Accord is doing.

    I am a little disturbed by the Japanese article to see one mode is generator-to-motor with no parallel, mechanical path. The same as the electrical path around the PSD with a 10-19% loss. In one respect, the three modes begin to sound like the old GM two-mode but not so heavy. However, if only used briefly as a transient until a mechanical, CVT can take take the full power flow . . . it could work.

    Honda has clever engineers so I look forward to seeing early adopters finish the integration and test.

    Bob Wilson
     
  7. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Dumping all vehicles with that criteria into a single category is what spawned the definition need in the first place. Being that generic would be as constructive as bunching all combustion engine-only vehicles together, which we all know isn't appropriate.

    The point was to highlight differences. The terms did indeed accomplish that.
     
  8. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    From the article, it sounds like the CVT is what is in the non-hybrid Accord. A line before the one you quoted said it was mated to the 2.4L engine. I think they compared the efficiency to the hybrid CVTs because those were their most efficient ones to date. For the non-hybrids, a CVT might be Honda's only option in an automatic that can compete with the others 6+ speed step transmission. My understanding is that Honda's step transmission design gets too bulky over their current 5 speeds.

    The dual clutch for the hybrids comes from Honda's press release.

    Toyota's CVT will available in the new Corolla.
    If it was a classic serial hybrid, there would be that 10-19% loss. The Accord hybrid has a battery to work with though. Using it as a buffer, the ICE doesn't have to run at inefficient engine speeds to produce electricity to match the traction motor's current consumption. It can run at that sweet spot on the bfsc chart, and store excess energy in the battery.

    The serial hybrid mode is only used at city speeds. The speeds at which an ICE only car does worse. The serial path has losses, but that has to be compared to the ICE running at less efficient rpms if it were connected in a parallel mode. We are just going to have to wait on users reports. I just hope the pricing doesn't keep that number low.

    Then how is this Accord hybrid not a full hybrid? It has two motors, allowing it to run as a serial hybrid. That is way beyond a mild or even assist hybrid. The ICE can also couple in to provide motive force to the drive train directly.
     
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  9. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    I was under the impression the split of ICE into electrical is 28% of torque rather than power. Am I wrong in thinking that as rpm increases but torque stays constant, the fraction of total power diverted to the motor decreases ?
     
  10. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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  11. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Aw man!

    What if we get so many hybrid variants in the market we can't remember which one uses what? I'm already getting a bad feeling about the Honda Accord hybrid . . . and then Toyota has announced doing some new stuff with the Prius.

    It is almost as bad as trying to run a general transmission shop . . . or independent repair shop . . .

    Bob Wilson
     
  12. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I don't understand the problem.

    What is the acceleration 0-60, 0-30, 50-70?
    What is the mpg - each of epa's cycles, c&d 75 mph, consumer reports 65 mph. wayne gerdes if available.
    What is the NVH - (engine off airconditioning?), engine off red light, etc
    What is the price?

    It really doesn't matter full or partial hybrid. The civic in my test drive failed to engine off at stops with air-conditioning. This causes engine idling reducing mpg and adding noise and vibration. We should not care which technology gets us here, but we can compare these metrics and make our individual assessment on what is important. I don't think there should be religious talk about full hybrid or hsd being "better" always. Its how they help on the metrics, and so far hsd has led at 200hp and bellow.

    In the horse race for mid size hybrid sedan - camry leads on nvh, acceleration, and cost over fusion. Fusion leads on fun to drive (subjective), looks (subjective) and mpg (just not as much as epa seems to say) especially city (though camry may win on longer higher speed trips). Once the accord hybrid is out there we should see where it fits in the matrix. Just like people choose accord versus camry versus fusion. I expect this will grow the market, as people that like accords may choose the hybrid version, but may not wish to switch to toyota, ford, or hyundai.
     
  13. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Plug in your humor cap
     
  14. spwolf

    spwolf Senior Member

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    in the near future, Hybrid is "just" another powertrain choice.... so if someone does it better than others, it will be like having nicer interior.

    only question is how fast can these guys ramp up the production so their costs are not out of control... big difference with Toyota doing 1.5m to 2m per year and Ford doing 100k.
     
  15. sURFNmADNESS

    sURFNmADNESS Prii Family

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    First off,
    John1701a, thanks for the great info on your website. I have been reading it now for years.

    Today Hybrid seems to mean anything with the Hybrid logo on it. I am surprised the auto makers did not hijack the name for use in their E85 vehicles or even NPG ones.

    I do like the Wikipedia definition of Hybrid though..

    A hybrid vehicle is a vehicle that uses two or more distinct power sources to move the vehicle.[2] The term most commonly refers to hybrid electric vehicles (HEVs), which combine an internal combustion engine and one or more electric motors. However other mechanisms to capture and utilize energy are included.
     
  16. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    lol.
    The accord hybrid seems just as much of a hybrid as the prius.

    Toyota saying its fuel cell vehicle has a hybrid synergy drive seems a little silly, but maybe that is just me. ;) Toyota does own the term.
     
  17. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Way back when, the purpose of defining hybrid types was overwhelmingly clear. Now, most people don't have a clue what the problems even were that those terms alleviated. The ultimate point was make people aware that all hybrids were not the same. Consumers today know that. Mission accomplished.

    Focus has since shifted to other things, like HV efficiency and EV range.
     
  18. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Other than the terms in my post, what does hybrid mean to you?

    The accord hybrid appears to have an EV mode, a declutched pure serial mode, a clutched parrellel/serial mode, and likely, and a pure direct drive ice to wheels without electricity mode. That sounds like more options than the prius, especially the gen I before electric air conditioning allowed it to run with engine off (a nice luxury mode that is important to those of us in the south). It seems to me that the accord can do all those hybridy things the prius does, in which case what matters is how well it does it. We won't know that until there are test drives. Honda has been in the hybrid game a long time, but has lagged significantly behind toyota. I doubt this fully catches up, but lets find out.
     
  19. TheEnglishman

    TheEnglishman Member

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    This will kick the Camry hybrid into the realm of "obsolete." Hopefully the designers at Toyota will make an increased effort to improve HSD when the G4 Prius is due.
     
  20. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    You have never seen the car let alone had a drive; and you have no idea what it will cost -- yet you state with confidence the Camry is 'obsolete.'

    Slow down, nellie

    That said, I hope the Accord is a winner. H0nda has been sorely missed from the leaders of hybrid tech since the Insight I. And honestly, Honda may have to beat the Camry by a fair margin to convince people to take a chance on the car after their gaffes over the years in hybrids and traction battery longevity.
     
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