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How long will brakes work after Hybrid (AM-2) fuse is blown?

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by rickster2, Jun 7, 2014.

  1. rickster2

    rickster2 Junior Member

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    (Creating a separate thread for this specific Q)

    Does anyone know how long the brakes will operate after the hybrid system shuts down via blowing the AM-2 fuse?

    After a loss of hybrid system power (in my case a blown AM-2 fuse), the brakes lose their power-assist, but they still work like old manual brakes. Regarding how long the brakes will work in this non-assisted backup mode I've heard answers from "a few pumps" to "indefinitely if you push hard like manual brakes."

    Does anyone know this? How long they will still work?

    Thanks
     
    #1 rickster2, Jun 7, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2014
  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    indefinitely.
     
  3. rickster2

    rickster2 Junior Member

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    Could you please elaborate? I'd appreciate it.
     
  4. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    there is a mechanical connection in the brake system, so you always have brakes, albeit, old fashioned non power.
     
  5. rickster2

    rickster2 Junior Member

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    Thanks Bisco.
    I have heard that there is a direct mechanical connection. But I have also been told, and read the opposite -- That when the hybrid sys goes out the brakes rely on the capacitor-based brake backup power supply. And the dealer service tech said that I probably had "a few pumps left of braking" (I wasn't sure how serious he was).

    Do you have any good (preferably toyota source) links that clarify this old-fashion brake backup?
     
  6. KhaPhoRa

    KhaPhoRa Member

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    Why not go to an empty parking lot (perhaps with a slope) and disconnect your 12v and unplug all the harnesses from the black box next to the 12v and see if there is any mechanical link? You can always use the parking brake if it doesn't work.
    While in there pull the orange hybrid plug..
    Either the brakes will work or not, there's no in between in that scenario

    Edit: give me ten minutes, my car is stripped down in the back and my driveway is sloped. Stand by :)
     
    #6 KhaPhoRa, Jun 7, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2014
  7. KhaPhoRa

    KhaPhoRa Member

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    Ok there is definitely a mechanical link. I put my car in ready and put the parking brake on, pulled my 12v and hybrid plug and the backup brake box harness and was able to roll down my driveway (confirming the car was not in P) and I pumped and stopped about 50 times before I got to the end of my driveway. There is absolutely a mechanical link.
    Edit: I clearly forgot to list a step for anyone wishing to duplicate this: put the car in N before pulling the 12v..
     
    #7 KhaPhoRa, Jun 7, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2014
  8. rickster2

    rickster2 Junior Member

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    Wow, KhaPhoRa,
    You are awesome!
    Thanks for that. Great to know. And it makes sense that they would have a direct, all-mechanical backup.

    There is no way I would start disconnecting harnesses. My days of car and motorcycle mechanics were years, decades actually, ago. Ah, the off-road and motocross days of yore ……

    Again, thank you so much.

    HMMM, (doubts forming) now if they have this all-mechanical backup, then why the heck to they also have an electrical ultra capacitor brake backup supply. Argh. Is the capacitor backup supposed to preserve POWER-assisted-brakes in some other failure modes, e.g. a 12v system failure???

    Anyway, you are the best. Thanks!
     
  9. KhaPhoRa

    KhaPhoRa Member

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    No problem.. I test hv packs on the road and I regularly stop at rest areas and swap packs super quick before anyone says anything, so my car was ready for this one :) my guess is the backup system is just to give a little comfort to people who expect the brakes to behave as normal in the event of a catastrophic systems failure. While I had to press a little harder than normal, it was not even remotely hard to jerk the car to an instant stop (although at maybe 3mph max) and I have no doubt it would work well at higher speeds.
     
  10. rickster2

    rickster2 Junior Member

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    thank you!
     
  11. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Yes, the capacitors extend the power assist for a while in the event of loss of external power to the braking system.

    But federal passenger car safety regulations also set standards about how the brakes must perform in the event of nearly any single imaginable power assist failure, short of bursting a housing that drives two hydraulic circuits. This pretty much requires that a mechanical (hydraulic) braking system underlie any power assist system, still functioning (albeit with a lot more pedal force) when the power layer quits. For the Prius' top level brake-by-wire system, this means the driver must be able to stomp through it to reach the raw mechanical-hydraulic system.

    Those federal regulations require that with power assist completely disabled, and some other conditions (e.g. a certain amount of wear on the friction parts) the car must stop from a certain speed (100 kmh -- 62 mph?) in a certain distance (considerably longer than we are accustomed to, I think something over 160 meters) when a certain pedal force (500 newtons, or 112 pound-force) is applied.

    Somewhere in the past, I posted a link to the actual regulation. Now that 'Search' is claimed to be working again, maybe I'll even be able to find it.
     
  12. rickster2

    rickster2 Junior Member

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    Thanks Fuzzy1. This helps, makes sense and is very good to know.