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Hybrid batteries surpass all expectations

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by usbseawolf2000, Feb 21, 2009.

  1. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    When Toyota's Prius first hit Japanese showrooms in 1997, I was highly skeptical that hybrids would catch on. Not only was the technology really expensive, I thought the nickel-metal hydride batteries would prove to be the Achilles Heel in the system. Sooner or later you'd be facing an expensive replacement bill, right?

    Well, here we are more than a decade later and those batteries are proving to be amazingly reliable. Toyota now has sold over 520,000 hybrids in just the American market. Honda has sold over 300,000 worldwide. Ford is just about to break through the 100,000 mark. The only reason they could sell so many hybrids is that the technology is working exactly like it's supposed to, including the batteries.

    The key to their longevity is that these batteries do no go through deep discharges. They still retain something like 40% charge when the engine comes on to re-charge them. But it may be possible to push that envelope. Though Ford isn't talking, some believe it got such jaw-dropping fuel economy numbers with the new Fusion hybrid by pushing the battery into deeper discharges.

    Toyota did tell me that for out-of-warranty customers the failure rate is only 1 out of 35,000. That's a pretty impressive number, but it also translates into a parts-per-million failure rate of 28. I know Toyota pushes its suppliers to hit a PPM rate of 10 or less, so as good as it is, I'm sure Toyota is pushing for better durability.

    Toyota sells all its returned batteries at very low cost to Kinsbursky Brothers, a huge recycling company in Anaheim, California. In fact, Toyota started recycling batteries with them in 1998 when it sold the EV RAV-4 in California.

    The nickel-metal hydride battery is about to be challenged by lithium-ion. There are plenty of questions about the durability, reliability and cost of these new batteries. Perhaps they will prove to be as good as the nickel-metal ones. But right now they're much more expensive, and it takes more energy to recycle lithium than it does to get virgin lithium. As a result, there is no market for post-consumer lithium. That's why some automakers, notably Toyota, believe that nickel-metal batteries will be around for a long time to come.

    Source: Autoline on Autoblog with John McElroy - Autoblog

    I only picked the paragraphs that I found interesting. Follow the link to read the entire article.
     
    #1 usbseawolf2000, Feb 21, 2009
  2. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    Keep in mind that some folks still believe that Toyota is single handedly responsible for the "moonscape" around Sudbury

    Hint to trolls: there *is* no moonscape around Sudbury. That was cleaned up in the 1980's, long before the Prius came along.

    Toyota purchases a teeny fraction of total smelter output, the rest goes to the US car industry and steel industry

    Another hint to trolls: Google is your friend. Look it up. RTFM, etc
     
    #2 jayman, Feb 21, 2009
  3. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    I bet that if you take out the failure rate of the Classic the 2G is approaching that 10/million failure rate that Toyota likes. I'd sure love to see some official numbers.
     
    #3 efusco, Feb 21, 2009
  4. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

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    An auto journalist providing accurate details and knowledgeable commentary...what a rarity. That was good reading devoid of random opinion.
     
    #4 FL_Prius_Driver, Feb 21, 2009
  5. timwalsh300

    timwalsh300 Member

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    I thought people in the Prius community have already experimented with this (adding more battery capacity) and found no impact on fuel economy. :confused:

    Personally, I can only think of a handful of situations when I've maxed out the battery and could have used more capacity for regeneration. Only on some really big hills...

    Tim
     
    #5 timwalsh300, Feb 21, 2009
  6. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    Those who have added extra capacity generally enjoy an approximately 10% improvement in FE depending upon conditions. More capacity adds flexibilty to the charge/D/C cycles.
     
    #6 efusco, Feb 21, 2009
  7. donee

    donee New Member

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    Hi All,

    Based on this, Why is Rick Wagoner still CEO of GM ?
     
    #7 donee, Feb 22, 2009
  8. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

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    Because the GM Board of Directors has not changed.
     
    #8 FL_Prius_Driver, Feb 22, 2009
  9. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    What the hell, plenty more taxpayer money for them to keep going SOP
     
    #9 jayman, Feb 22, 2009
  10. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    The thing that keeps nagging me is the title... "exceeds all expectations" I don't think that's true at all. It isn't exceeding my expectations...or Toyota's...or most people who took the time to learn and understand how these things work.

    It did exceed the expectations of the ill informed (intentionally or otherwise) and misled (by the press and other critics). And somehow they're surprised by that. Curious.
     
    #10 efusco, Feb 22, 2009
  11. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    Well, trying to convince barely literate hillbillies that a Prius battery actually does last more than 2 years, or costs less than $15 G's, or does NOT contribute to the "moonscape" around Sudbury, Ontario .... perhaps that has exceeded expectations
     
    #11 jayman, Feb 22, 2009
  12. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    How would Toyota know? If the vehicle is out of warranty then a salvage part may be installed or the vehicle may be scrapped. In either case this would not be apparent to Toyota. Toyota would only have visibility to owners who elected to pay $4K to a Toyota dealer to have a replacement installed.

    How about in-warranty failure rates? I've owned three Toyota hybrids and had in-warranty traction battery failures on two (2001 Prius, 2006 HiHy.) I understand that Classic salvage traction battery prices are currently near $1K (if batteries can be found) which implies that battery failure rates equal or exceed scrap rates due to major accidents.

    I would agree that 2G traction battery failure rates appear to be exceedingly low, since we've seen very few reports about this on the various Prius forums. Further, the price of 2G salvage batteries is quite low, around $400 or so on eBay (plus shipping), which is more evidence that there's little current demand.
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/04-07-Prius-Hybrid-Battery-Pack-G928047100-OE-LKQ_W0QQitemZ220362526626QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item220362526626&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A543%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318
     
    #12 Patrick Wong, Feb 22, 2009
  13. PriusSport

    PriusSport senior member

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    The current Prius is the best engineered car in the world. It has stood the test of time. The next generation car will have a break-in period of a few years to iron out the inevitable flaws. That's why the current generation car is a wise choice.
     
    #13 PriusSport, Feb 22, 2009
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