Hybrid vehicles losing their appeal? Toyota Prius sales soar in January

That's just so cool!! Just goes to show, a lot of people will purchase an alternative vehicle to an ICE only vehicle if it is proven and reliable. So, now there are over 8,200 more people saving more gas and polluting the air less!!! How cool is that? :lol: :lol:

And, even if the increased commercial advertisements on TV have been a contributing factor, who cares? More hybrids on the road = less pollution, less dependence on gas... :lol: :lol:

 

Not sure why they titled it "Are hybrid vehicles losing their appeal?" when nothing in the article even raised that question, as the answer appears to be a resounding "No!".

 

Well, in the last three years conventional cars improved significantly and pure electric cars started showing up (Tesla). To be objective you may want to look at CO2 emissions from different cars. There is practically no US data, but data on different cars can be obtained at UK sites.

Did you know, for example, that BMW significantly reduced CO2 emissions from their cars: 1-series in UK emits only 15% more than Prius, 123g/km vs. 104g/km: BMW 1

Even full size sport sedan like 2008 BMW 5 series emits 20% less CO2 than 2007 model and only 65% more CO2 (175g/km) than Prius (104g/km) - and we are talking 6 cylinder 250hp engine.

Tesla electric roadster is available right now and they are planning 4-door full electric AWD sedan with price in 50K range next year or so.

This obviusly shoukd give you an idea why Toyota is working hard on raising both Prius power AND mpg, various sources suggest 1.8L engine with bigger battery, pontentially plug-in and 80mpg. 45mpg is not comparing well anymore.

 

There are some people who will not buy a car unless they get it at a discount. Right or wrong, value or not. The vast majority of Prius sales have been done at MSRP in the past. Now they are discounted and readily available. You can go to the lot <not everywhere at have choices. That brings in many who would not buy it before. Toyota should be able to sell as many as they make until the details of the new model spread. If its a major upgrade (as we seem to think) sales of the old model may slow. Luckly for Toyota, HSD is more advanced then anything else on the market so buying a car based on 2004 TOYOTA technology is still more advanced then the reskin job that ford has done on the 2008 Escape.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(LazyBear @ Feb 2 2007, 12:12 AM) [snapback]384270[/snapback]</div>

Come on! You are comparing a Compact 2+1 doors car with a Mid-size 4+1 doors car. BMW 118d has a diesel engine which is known to be low on CO2 emission but much higher on others (HC, PM, etc...). Ignoring the rest does not paint the whole picture.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(LazyBear @ Feb 2 2007, 12:12 AM) [snapback]384270[/snapback]</div>

I say, if Toyota wants to cut down one second in 0-60 mph, they can use higher discharge capable Li-ion battery pack. Current NiMh pack outputs 28 hp (continous) and a burst 34 hp for 10 seconds. If the new Li-ion pack can deliver a burst 51hp for 10 seconds while keeping 76 hp 1.5 liter ICE, they can reach the 9.5 sec goal.

Higher discharge also mean higher rate the HV pack can capture regenerative braking energy. If 0-60 mph acceleration takes 110 hp for 10 secs, braking would need to take 50 seconds to charge the battery at "capable" 22 hp. This is the reason why Prius only captures about 1/3 (not 1/5 because ppl don't floor the brake all the time) of the total braking energy. With the new Li-ion pack, Prius might be able to capture 60-75% of the braking energy.

I see the electric side becoming more powerful and ICE less powerful to achieve higher MPG. What I wish to see is HCCI 1.5 liter ICE instead of 1.8 liter ICE that is newly designed for the new Corola.

Dennis

 

quote: Tesla electric roadster is available right now and they are planning 4-door full electric AWD sedan with price in 50K range next year or so.


Tesla roadster starts at $92K and the sedan would still be 2x what a well-equipped Prius costs, so not clear how they would be competing for Prius sales...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DelerPrius @ Feb 3 2007, 03:46 PM) [snapback]384932[/snapback]</div>

They will be competing at least with Lexus sales. Prius is not the cheapest car size/luxury/amenities wise, so Prius buyers don't buy it because they want to save money on gas or car. Many Prius drivers can afford more expensive cars (at least among Prius drivers I know personally). Tesla is zero (as in 0) emission car AND its FAST. I personally would buy Tesla sedan right away. 50-60K is a typical luxury sedan price range, Lexus GS, Audi A6, BMW 5, so price is not that outrageous for a fast car provided it comes with right trimmings like leather, nav, xenon and decent sound system.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Feb 3 2007, 12:20 PM) [snapback]384874[/snapback]</div>

Of course they don't compare exactly, but some people who were concerned with CO2 emissions may choose not to get hybrid and instead get BMW since it is close enough (and you get prestigious badge). EU taxes cars based on CO2, so other emissions may or may not count. US is different, of course.

Point it - if gasoline car emits 2-3x CO2 compared to Prius, for someone who is somewhat (but not to extreme) concerned with CO2 emissions the choice is a no-brainer. However, if gasoline or diesel car only produces 20-30% more, the choice becomes more difficult (again, for ordinary folks, not for dye-in-wool treehuggers ) Sales don't drop, but growth slows down since Toyota may be getting less customers than it could. So they are making even more efficient Prius since other car makers don't sleep.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MechaJohn @ Feb 1 2007, 04:22 PM) [snapback]384132[/snapback]</div>

[/b][/quote]
Soultek updated their article on the Prius:
http://www.soultek.com/clean_energy/hybrid...rius_hybrid.htm

Sales up 4% from last January, but what I thought significant is that Toyota is planning making 200K Prii for the U.S. market this year, almost double of last year! For reference, in 2004 they sold 53K Prii, 2005 about 100K, last year held steady for a couple reasons. So this is a major push, no wonder they've been putting ads on TV.

For comparison, the top-selling sedans in the U.S. sell about 300,000 cars/year. (Camry, Accord, Chevy Impala).

Expect more users at PriusChat!!! B)

 

Anyone notice that the layoffs announced today at Daimler/Chrysler are just with the truck in the Chrysler Group (Ram, Durango, Aspen SUV) ?

Other gas guzzlers are taking a hit - Ford is the most truck-heavy automaker and they have had their worst year in their 103-year history.

Hybrid sales have been growing each year. The people that did not buy hybrids this year have put enough of a priority on fuel efficiency it's impacted the larger vehicles. Over time, they will probably be less afraid of hybrids.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(LazyBear @ Feb 4 2007, 03:39 PM) [snapback]385213[/snapback]</div>

No. Electrical generation emits C02. At the US national average grid mix, most reasonable calculations show electric cars having something around half the C02 emissions of the equivalent gas cars, when charged from the grid.

For example, the 2003 RAV4 and RAV4 EV were rated by the EPA at roughly 7 tons C02 annual (gas) and 4 tons C02 annual (electric).

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymodel/200...yota_RAV4.shtml

By contrast, the 2007 Prius is rated at 3.4 tons of C02 annually:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymodel/200...ota_Prius.shtml

The fact that a car is an EV does not mean it necessarily pollutes less than (say) a Prius. Electric cars that are charged from the grid generate significant amounts of C02 release, and a big or electrically "thirsty" EV can generate more C02 than (say) a Prius (as the EPA data above demonstrate).

For the same car, the EV charged from the grid will generate far less C02 at the national grid mix. But if you get an EV Hummer you'll generate more pollution than a Prius. And maybe even if you get an EV sportscar, though I have not see the data on that one way or the other.

Two further asides:

First, I wonder what the C02 comparison would have looked like if there had been a RAV4 HSD hybrid? If an HSD RAV4 cut gasoline use by 25% (fair assumption?), the comparison would have said 5.2 tons C02 for a RAV4 HSD, 3.9 tons C02 for RAV4 EV. That's still good, but it's clear that, for the same vehicle, an EV charged from the grid would results in only a relatively modest reduction in C02 compared to a HSD-driven hybrid. Only if we go darelldd's route -- charge the EV with clean electricity -- does EV represent a solution to C02 release.

Second, and totally off-topic: This is why I am disappointed to see that the proposed Chevy Volt looks to me like it's a full-sized traditional American passenger sedan with minimal aerodymanic shape. It's not clear that a (say) 2 ton Volt with a relatively upright profile will actually generate less C02 than a 1.5 ton aerodynamically-shaped Prius. It would be a shame if the path-breaking proposed GM PHEV Volt produced more C02 than the Prius.

 

I read quite a few articles published and opinions posted over the past 3 weeks saying Prius was a difficult sale now... despite the obvious evidence showing recent monthly purchase records contradicting that.

A main arguing factor was that gas was less expensive now. It's like they were in complete denial about the reality that prices will again climb sometime during the lifetime of the vehicle. Well, I didn't have to wait long for an "I told you so" example.

This morning (when I filled up, thank goodness) it was $2.13 per gallon. On the drive home from work, I saw the price had shot up to $2.45 for some reason. (Oil futures actually went down. So something else is contributing to the problem this time.)

Anywho, take that 32 cent difference and spread it along a 150,000 miles of driving at an average of 48 MPG. That's $1,000! Favor swings toward Prius rather quickly when you consider economics that way. Of course, it's more fun considering how much that extra 32 cents per gallon really amounts to for a vehicle only averaging 30 MPG. That's $1,600!!!

In other words, the expense of gas is much greater than they care to admit. Even when the price appears low, the amount really adds up still. Hopefully, more people will do the math and see that.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Feb 19 2007, 10:14 PM) [snapback]393056[/snapback]</div>

I actually think the savings are a great deal more, namely since for many of us, the Prius uses about half the gas of our prior car. So instead of it being the difference between filling up before/after a temporary bump, I figure I'm saving half of that $2.45 with my Prius because I only fill up half as much. Filling our Subaru tank was costing $35-$45 dollars (admittedly higher gas prices) for about ~250 miles a tank. The Prius is costing about $18 a tank for ~360 miles a tank.

Daron Spicher recently posted a thread on his first year mileage/savings (he clocked 40k miles in year one!) and figured he saved about $4300 on gas in the last year. The thread below contains a link to his site
http://priuschat.com/index.php?s=&show...st&p=391218
where he's got the mileage records to back it up. http://www.daronspicher.com/php/prius/priusgasgrid.php

 

Thanks for the discussion on CO2 emissions for EV. The majority of electricity in Illinois is provided by coal burning power plants and some nuclear plants. Pollution control for the coal plants is improving, but much more needs to be done. Nuclear energy is considered clean but the radioactive waste products are a big problem. For these reasons I am hesitant to jump on the plug-in bandwagon.

Did anyone read the recent PopSci article about using a plasma incinerator to convert garbage to gases and glass? It's being touted as a way to provide hydrogen fuel while eliminating the need for landfills.

-just a little food for thought...

On topic-I'm one of those who happily contributed to the Prius sales soar in January! Love it, love it, love it!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(geeky teacher @ Feb 20 2007, 01:08 AM) [snapback]393156[/snapback]</div>

And we're happy to have you here! There's a pretty good contingent of people here at PC from the Chicago area.

Coal and nuclear plants are generating electricity at night whether anybody will use it or not, so plug-ins won't really contribute much to global-warming gases if you plug it in overnight. What we need to do is reduce daytime usage.

Discover magazine also had a couple articles on Changing World Technologies, which can process certain types of waste (animal, plastics) into oil. Some skeptics have denounced that, but I haven't seen specifics on that, just some running off at the mouth. They are setting up some factories in Europe where the tax system better benefits oil from garbage. Regardless, there's a lot of reusable material and energy stored in our landfills, I'm sure we'll be mining them in the future. And letting cow manure vent into the air rather than burning the methane for energy is inexcusable (for feedlots anyway, not practical on a really small scale). Some ethanol plants are teaming up with feedlots for this purpose - using cow manure to partially power the ethanol production, and the cows are fed the leftover corn mash after the ethanol is taken out.

But I'm way off-topic now. Cow or bull-<strike>sh</strike> uh, manure, shouldn't be associated with rising Prius sales.

 

Waiting! Waiting!

I want my Toyota iQ !!!!!:rockon::rockon:

 

What are you talking about? Acccording to an article in today's Green Car Congress newsletter, "[t]he Prius posted 8,121 units in January, a 28.6% drop year-on-year." That seems about right. Are you perchance some PR person, hired to put disinformation on this site?

 

Look at the date of the original post...

 

iQ is expected to hit the market here in 2012. I read it in the local paper yesterday.