Hydrogen powered BMW's

I'll buy a H2 powered car when they figure out a way to extract H2 cheaply without burning natural gas.

 

Please provide a list of hydrogen filling stations...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Jun 6 2006, 04:27 PM) [snapback]266941[/snapback]</div>

I'm confused. Everybody can do H2 ICE. They HAVE done H2 ICE. Except for finding the fuel and storing it in the vehicle, there's not much to it! Between gasoline and CNG ICE... we've pretty much been there, done that. No rocket science to having a combustible material make an ICE run.

I heard a Ford spokesperson with my own two ears say that they could have an H2 ICE in the dealerships in under one year if they had to. That was three years ago. The reason they were NOT going to do that? No infrastructure.

If we're all waiting around for H2 ICE... we already have it. What we don't have is a need... or filling stations.

 

Is burning H2 in an ICE even zero emissions? Unless they are providing pure O2 also, N from the atmosphere is going to be converted to NOx, right? Unless maybe the burn temperatures are lower and that doesn't happen at the lower temperatures.

 

The big problem with fuel cells that nobody seems to be worrying about is that platinum is even more scarce than petroleum: there's not enough platinum on the entire planet to make all the catalysts required.. A conservative estimate is that there's probably only enough platinum on the earth to make fuel cells for about 25% of the vehicles in the world today (and that's excluding all the other uses for platinum we currently have- ie, if we used up all the platinum for vehicle fuel cells, there'd be none left for things like medical drug production, which I would argue is a far better use for our limited platinum reserves). Although new developments are continually reducing the amount of platinum required per fuel cell, as of today, they still require enough that even if we had hydrogen fueling infrastructure available, and a clean way of producing the hydrogen (vs hydrocarbon cracking), fuel cell vehicles would still be impractical for this reason.

An H2 ICE on the other hand does not require any sort of catalyst- it just burns the hydrogen directly, which might not be very efficient, but it is clean (burning H2 produces only H2O and heat, and nothing else) and based on proven technology.

 

From: http://www.memagazine.org/backissues/feb02...p/fillerup.html

When hydrogen is burned with air in an internal combustion engine, some nitrogen oxides are formed, but fewer than the pollutants generated by fossil fuels, according to the Department of Energy's Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy Clearinghouse in Merrifield, Va.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(c4 @ Jun 7 2006, 10:49 AM) [snapback]267329[/snapback]</div>

As others have pointed out, there IS some pollution created with H2 combustion in the atmosphere. Cleaner than gasoline, certainly, but still not "zero." And with the amount of energy required to produce H2, the process can get less desirable. And I'll keep saying this until I'm blue: If we're going to create H2 ICE where the H2 comes from NG... let's skip the expensive middleman, and burn CNG directly!

A FCV and a BEV are two zero-emission vehicles. NO tailpipe emissins. What's left is to consider is the upstream pollution/costs. Since a FCV requires 3-4X the electricity of a BEV, whatever those pollution/costs are, will be 3-4x as much for FCV as for BEVs

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Jun 7 2006, 08:57 AM) [snapback]267259[/snapback]</div>

There are at least 10 hydrogen Prius running around in Southern California. Toyota tends to be "been there, done that".

 

The article is propaganda. Hydrogen is NOT a 'clean' fuel -- it is a clean carrier. If the energy is obtained from fossil fuels (as everybody plans), it is dirty energy. Expensive, inefficient, dirty energy.

Why are the auto companies wasting their time and money on this nonsense ? Detroit I understand -- the US gov gave them a massive handout; but BMW ??

 

I saw a yellow H2 yesterday on I-4. It sure was pretty!!!!!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ Jun 7 2006, 02:33 PM) [snapback]267486[/snapback]</div>

An excellent question. The US makers appear to be persuing it for the express purpose of not having to do anything about emissions TODAY (read: build EVs). I'm not sure if BMW has yet crossed the production threashold which would force them into building ZEVs under the CARB ruling yet. It is a good question. Why *is* BMW putting effort into FCV? Even Fuel Cell gurus like Ballard think that Fuel Cells in vehicles is a dumb idea. Go figure.

Honestly I do forsee a time when FCVs could be viable. It just isn't soon enough... not when we have a viable tech that's so much cheaper and easier that we are NOT doing. EVs are not being built today BECAUSE of the far-distant promise of Fuel Cell Vehicles.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Jun 8 2006, 12:15 AM) [snapback]267706[/snapback]</div>

What scenario would make FCV viable ? AFAIK --

Hydrogen from hydrocarbons does not solve the CO2 emissions problem, and is inefficient in a well->wheel analysis.

Hydrogen from water using electricity is horribly inefficient. Energy -> battery -> car makes *much* more sense.

The only 'advantages' I can see for hydrogen is allowing use of extremely dirty fuel distant from the consumer, and portability. Maybe good for shale oil and coal companies, but really bad for everybody else.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ Jun 8 2006, 05:52 AM) [snapback]267798[/snapback]</div>

Easy! Just read between the lines of any FCV hype article... We make about 15 huge miracle breakthroughs that lower the cost of FC stacks by about 99.5% of current prices, then we perfect the super-cheap direct solar-to-H2 hydrolysis of salt water with another few miracle breakthroughs. Then we figure out how to extract power for a FC stack fast enough to power a car without the need of lots of batteries or capacitors. Problem solved!

Hey. A guy can dream. I don't want to totally dismiss the idea that technology will improve the endgame! I just can't figure out why we've abandoned the technology that's proven, cheap and here today, for the one that is just.... well, insane at this point.

When you consider how good the battery cars were that were made ten years ago by the car makers under duress - you've got to believe that after ten years of additional R&D, and a compelling reason to WANT to make them... that battery cars could/would be nothing short of stellar today. If they were being made. The auto makers have said that they want FCVs on the road since the 60's! And still nothing in the show room 40 years later? When they had to build battery cars, the big auto makers had them on the road in two years. But no... battery cars are too hard to make. FCVs will be way easier. I'm sure of it! We just haven't yet figured out HOW to make it easier. Or cheaper.

And again... why the heck is a company like BMW putting money into this? Could you imagine an EBMW? I can!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Jun 8 2006, 05:26 PM) [snapback]268258[/snapback]</div>

I get it !! Wow, awesome ! I'm gonna go buy me some of that H stock right now !!

 

Anyone happen to have any numbers handy on the efficiency of a H2 powered ICE and H2 powered PEM?

 

I'm just lookingforward to the day (not too distant future I hope) when our Prius' will be considered Gas Guzzlers.....10 years from now perhaps.....

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JBJAG @ Jun 9 2006, 03:59 PM) [snapback]268908[/snapback]</div>

Ha! More like ten years ago!
We own two production Toyota vehicles. The Prius is BY FAR the worst gas mileage vehicle. You've seen my license plate frame?



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ Jun 8 2006, 02:47 PM) [snapback]268269[/snapback]</div>

Sorry. Didn't mean to create false hopes.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MikeSF @ Jun 9 2006, 02:33 PM) [snapback]268869[/snapback]</div>

Dang it. This is ticking me off. I *did* have some good stuff, but can't find it now that I want it. It is around here somewhere! Might have better luck with Google than I'm having on my HD.