Featured Hyundai IONIQ - Prius competitor?

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by GasperG, Dec 8, 2015.

  1. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    I'm hoping for the next Prius v's sake that the improvements to the gen4 drive train mean it can skip the reduction gear it currently has. This would mean a bigger jump in fuel economy. Giving it a larger distinction from the Rav4 hybrid. But its sales were poor before the SUV's arrival.
     
  2. Felt

    Felt Senior Member

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    After years of reading this forum daily, there are several that I feel have become 'friends.' (bisco and trollbait) to name two. Thank you both for your comments and explanations.

    The G4 Prius has not interested me from the get-go .... and the design has not grown on me. I still dislike it, maybe more that initially.
    For a while, I considered the Ioniq, but my first impression (base model) really stopped me cold. I need to look at an SEL and see if the 'door opens' for me.

    Yesterday, I put a deposit on the Tesla 3 ..... ya, I know it is a long wait, and maybe before my number comes up, the Prius will have been re-designed and become more attractive. I really feel that technically, the G4 is a well engineered vehicle.

    I will still be around this forum for a while, but right now, I'm enjoying the Tesla forum.
     
  3. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Long wait? Maybe not - maybe a friend near the front of the line might donate their spot to you. I doubt Bisco'd do that for you though ....

    .
     
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  4. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i'd be happy to, but tesla has never been on my radar.:cool:
     
  5. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    i can hook you up . . . .

    [​IMG]

    .
     
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  6. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i'll probably wind up waiting for the 150 mile gen 3 prius.:coffee:
     
  7. Felt

    Felt Senior Member

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    " snip - Tesla has never been on my radar."

    My brother owns a Model S, and I was impressed.He loves the car and I value his opinion (he is a car-guy).
    Naturally, the Model 3 is a big unknown ... but I thought I would put down a deposit and wait and see. The money surely is not earning in interest in the bank and it is refundable.
     
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  8. bhtooefr

    bhtooefr Senior Member

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    Well, my understanding was that the v didn't have an extra reduction gearbox, but rather a shorter gear ratio in the same reduction gear section that the Gen 3 had.

    However, interestingly, the Prime manages to, despite a significantly shorter final gearing stage, get better mileage than the standard Liftback. (I suspect that the larger battery is helping it here.) My guess is that a Gen 4-based v would have the Prime's gearing.

    However, the problem is, as @Russell Frost noted in his Prime review, the added weight that a v would have, especially when fully loaded (which I'd think would be similar to that of a Prime fully loaded), would hurt performance, potentially beyond acceptability to American drivers. Then again, I've speculated that a v-replacement product for Europe and Japan could look a lot like the existing v in form factor and capability, and those markets are less sensitive to acceleration performance. Alternately, increasing engine displacement some may help, and there's been rumors of a hybrid variant of the 2.0 liter 3ZR for a Lexus variant of the C-HR, to replace the CT 200h - those rumors being fueled by Lexus trademarking "UX 250h".
     
  9. royrose

    royrose Senior Member

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    I believe that we will know a lot more about these choices within the next year.

    This fall the next gen Camry, built on TNGA and with 4th gen Prius drivetrain improvements, will hit the showrooms. The mpg figures will become available and should show a significant improvement.

    If Toyota keeps on the usual 6 year model change over, the next gen Rav 4 should be announced about a year from now as a 2019 Model, also TNGA with a drivetrain similar to the new Camry hybrid. Again, mpg should be significantly improved.

    I'm guessing that there will be news by then about the Prius V and C as well. Probably one or both will be discontinued but who knows.

    By the way, I saw an Ioniq in the Costco parking lot. To me it was pretty ordinary looking, actually looked better in pictures that I have seen.
     
    #1809 royrose, Apr 28, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2017
  10. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Knew it was something to do with gears.:)

    With the gen4 getting lithium, perhaps Toyota will offer the three seat row v in North America. The Mazda5 is gone here, but timing is a factor for a product's success. I don't see an American sized hybrid minivan coming from Toyota soon, and a v with more seats would be something of a competitor to the Pacifica PHEV.

    Without some type of shake up to the NA model, the v is doomed here. A larger engine might be needed for sales, but that alone won't be enough to help it against the Rav4h.

    If think the c is safe. Specially if the cost can be cut some, and Toyota continues to sandbag the Yaris with old technology.

    People thought that hybrids needed to look different to sell. I think many bought the Prius despite its looks, and simply valued the functionality over form aspect once they got to put the car to use. The hatchback had all but disappeared from the US, but hatches elsewhere had profiles near that of the gen2 Prius at the time.

    The Civic hybrid has been held up as an example of normal looking hybrid won't sell. That ignores the fact that it cost the same as a Prius, was smaller, and lost functionality in trunk space and fold down seats. People that could buy these hybrids could easily buy a Camry or Accord. The Prius kept more of those midsized cars space for people and stuff, while also getting better fuel economy than the Civic.

    Most car buyers are conservative in their tastes. An ordinary looking car can be a plus for a hybrid if it is done right.
     
  11. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    So I'm sitting at a table at lunch and a 70 year old guy leans over and asks me about the seating height for ingress/egress of my v. Wants something a little more accessible. I'll take my car over to him on Sunday afternoon when he will show us his month long Africa trip pictures. So it isn't money or MPG that drives all car buyers. At the same lunch someone is telling me about the wonders of the lane assist on his car. As I age (74) I think the assists become an increasingly good idea for me, Rav4 has em, v doesn't. Will it for 2018?

    Why is it the car you want is always the next model?
     
  12. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Yes. I'm expecting close to Gen 2 or 3 mileage with the 2018 TCH (somewhere in the 46-48mpg combined range) which will be fantastic considering the size of the car (it's now Avalon-sized in terms of wheelbase) and power. (Don't know if it'll gain any but 200hp is still decent when combined with the instant torque).

    I hope so but the problem is that the Prius' chassis was so specialized that added more weight (the v) meant adjusting the gear ratios to account for it and have decent acceleration with just the driver. Load it up with a family and gear and it's sluggish.

    I agree, ideally it'll come with the 2.5HSD setup. If the Camry can get that kind of mileage, I'm sure if it was plopped into the v, it'll make for a sort-of- pocket rocket (like the V6 RAV4 was but... not as fast obviously). It'll be lighter than the Camry so it should be able to accelerate faster and get better mpg. If TNGA means the Prius won't have a Prius-specific chassis (and it seems like it doesn't), then we should see weight savings there.

    But you're right, it needs to distinguish itself from the RAV4.

    Well most models will have TSS for the 2017 model year. Safe to say that the next gen Prius v will have if it does continue.
     
  13. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    So I'm setting the navigation destination when a guy comes over curious about the BMW i3-REx. We did a walk-around and he had a chance to sit in the car. If it weren't for my next appointment, I would have let him drive around the parking lot. . . . We should expect to be ambassadors for our cars.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  14. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    you're supposed to say, 'if you like this, you should see my prius!':cool:
     
  15. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    I'd say we should be helpful to our friends and tell the truth as best we know it. My daughter in law bought a v after reading my long lists of things I liked and disliked about mine.

    No car is perfect and certainly no car is perfect for everyone.
     
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  16. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I did.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  17. UsedToLoveCars

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  18. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

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    Good picture for "first approach", but on the long tooth Hyundai has to prove reliability and we already have a clue that EPA values were inflated...
     
  19. bhtooefr

    bhtooefr Senior Member

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    Here's the fundamental problems I see with that product in a US context.

    The first is size.

    AFAIK, the reason why they didn't do a three-row v was that it'd be too small for Americans, not that lithium-ion batteries cost too much. Note that Toyota had experience with this - there used to be a three-row RAV4, too, and that's gone - if you want a three-row Toyota CUV, you're getting a Highlander, now. And, the Mazda5 is gone here, as you said - there's a reason for that. (The Transit Connect exists, though, with a three-row option... but in that configuration, it's 9.2" longer than the Mazda5, while being based on basically the same platform.)

    Conversely, in Europe and Japan, people are smaller, and have more tolerance of being cramped. So, things like the Prius v, the Verso, and the Wish work in those markets. (However, I also suspect that the Prius v, Verso, and Wish will all end up collapsed into one model with a hybrid variant, instead of a dedicated hybrid model. The Verso's a bit taller and shorter than the v, but the v and Wish are almost the same size.)

    The next thing is internal competition, as I suspect that Toyota may see a usefully-large-for-Americans three-row Prius as competing against higher-profit Siennas and Highlanders. For that matter, whether it's three-row or not, there's also the competition against the RAV4 Hybrid, if the Prius v is good enough to actually sell. And, if Toyota sees the Pacifica Hybrid as a threat, it'd be trivial for them to build a Sienna Hybrid - they've already got the powertrain due to the Sienna sharing powertrains with the Highlander, and there's some unused underfloor area, especially in a FWD van.

    And, finally, there's styling. The Prius v looks like a van, in a crossover market.

    (Now, myself, I'd rather see the market somehow be pushed towards more aerodynamic vehicles that are sized for requirements rather than wants, but I think Toyota trying it is a recipe for burning money, at this point.)

    Note that it's only the US market where it gets sandbagged with old tech. Everywhere else, the far more thermally efficient NR engine replaced the ancient NZ engine in non-hybrid models (to the point that a 2NR-FKE is more efficient than a 1NZ-FXE, and more powerful than a 1NZ-FE), and it gets CVTs instead of 4-speed slushboxes. They're coming out with a Yaris GRMN, presumably based on the 2AR-FE (it's a 1.8 liter, anyway), with a 205+ hp supercharged engine, to take on the Fiesta ST directly. Oh, and Europe never got the Aqua/Prius c, instead getting the Yaris Hybrid. Same powertrain and hybrid system packaging as the c (I mean, it's the same platform), but in a shorter wheelbase, taller car.

    The thing that makes me think the c is doomed, though, is Toyota launching the Vitz (read: Yaris) Hybrid in Japan for 2017, citing demand for a car in that segment. The c really continues to exist because of the Aqua being one of the top-selling cars in Japan (before the Gen 4 came out, it was the #1 selling non-kei car)... but now it's got internal competition from the Vitz Hybrid, the Gen 4 already displaced it, the C-HR has displaced it as well, and the Nissan Note has hit #1 thanks to the e-Power hybrid model. Basically, I think the Aqua will be allowed to run to the natural end of its market cycle, but no second generation will come (and I'd guess that a new generation, rather than a facelift, of the Yaris would happen at the same time).
     
    #1819 bhtooefr, Apr 29, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2017
  20. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

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    Do you have source?
     
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