Hyundai Ioniq the new MPGe champion, beats Prius Prime

Discussion in 'Hyundai/Kia/Genesis Hybrids and EVs' started by Gokhan, Nov 21, 2016.

  1. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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  2. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    No plug in hybrid option yet, and no CVT (dual clutch transmission instead - ick). One of my favorite features of the Prius is the CVT. It's hard to go back to having shift points once you've gotten rid of them. That alone is a deal breaker for me.
     
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  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    another 120 mile bev? the world shrugged.
     
  4. William Redoubt

    William Redoubt Senior Member

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    !!!!!!! +5 points !!!!!!!

    The real genius in the Prius is the power split device. The only time it doesn't make sense is on a long downhill run with the battery fully charged. That's wasted energy. The Synergy Drive will only get more efficient with advances in battery technology. I don't know of any system that is more economical than generating power for an automobile than the Synergy Drive. It costs about 4 cents a mile, requires no additional infrastructure (beyond existing fueling technology), has infinite range within the developed world and can double as an emergency power source.
     
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  5. drysider

    drysider Active Member

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    I cannot see the utility in 124 miles. Too far for a commute, to little for a trip. The pricing looks good...
     
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  6. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    especially when it's only 75 miles in winter.
     
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  7. 'LectroFuel

    'LectroFuel Senior Member

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    I can't see why manufacturers are coming out with cars that have less range than a Model 3, Model S, or Bolt. There is NOTHING to brag about why their cars are better. Not to mention these small range EVs depreciate like crazy.
     
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  8. bhtooefr

    bhtooefr Senior Member

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    Because they legally have to in some jurisdictions.

    And part of why they depreciate like crazy is because there's tons of money being tossed on the hood.
     
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  9. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The power split system may be a costlier way than a parallel one in getting an efficient hybrid. The MGs in the power split need to be oversized in comparison to the required output. The parallel hybrid can stick to a smaller motor that is sized right for the application.

    It allows for range loss in the winter, and allows for errands that BEVs currently available could not do on a single charge. Anything over a 100 miles is likely more acceptable to the general public. Besides Hyundai will have a longer range option for 2018.

    Where did you see a price?

    Being $7000 to $10k less might be something.

    Tesla is the only one with an extensive fast DC charging network to allow many to consider a BEV for a replacement of an ICE across the country at this time. The CHAdeMO and CCS chargers that are out there are only 50kW, which will make them slow for a 200 mile BEV. So most BEVs available in the near future are going to be local, second cars for a family even if it has over 200 miles of range.
     
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  10. William Redoubt

    William Redoubt Senior Member

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    I am interested in hearing more about your conception of a "parallel" hybrid. I thought the power split device made the Synergy Drive both a parallel and series drivetrain, based upon required inputs from the ICE and the motor/generators. Please elaborate.
     
  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    A parallel hybrid is simple in concept; one motor to propel the car, with or without the ICE, but it is limited by the energy available in the battery. Without a second motor to be a generator, series operation isn't possible.

    A power split hybrid can run in a series mode because it does have that second M/G, but the M/Gs don't just have duties as motors or generators. They are also responsible for the transmission duties for the ICE. A parallel hybrid has a traditional transmission for that.

    Which brings me to what I said about the power split having oversized motors. Hyundai has replaced the starter and alternator in their hybrids with an HSG(hybrid starter generator). It has enough power to spin up the ICE to rev match the motor at highway speeds. The HSG is 10kW, which is half the power, at most, output of the M/G1 on the Prius. The M/G1 has to be bigger to not just provide energy to M/G2 in series mode, but also to control the effective gear ratios of the transaxle.

    M/G2 is oversized in a power split because it doesn't have the benefit of changing gear ratios when propelling the car. The parallel hybrid's M/G output goes through the transmission before reaching the wheels. So a less powerful one can do the same job as a larger one directly driving the wheels.

    So the motors will cost less in a parallel hybrid than those in a power split one. Some of the cost savings goes into the transmission, which will have some cost savings of its own by sharing components with transmissions for the maker's ICE models, and some into the larger battery a parallel hybrid needs for extended operation of the M/G as a motor.

    This could mean a parallel hybrid can yield the same combined efficiency as a power split for a cheaper price. Parallel hybrids do get lower economy in the city than the highway, like ICE cars. The series operation of the power split might make them tough to beat in the city.

    Note to the readers out there, categorizing a hybrid as mild/weak or full/strong is independent of it being a parallel one. Honda's old IMA and GM's eAssist are weak parallel systems. Honda's new dual clutch hybrid and Hyundai's system are strong parallel hybrids.
     
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  12. bhtooefr

    bhtooefr Senior Member

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    At the same time, though, while a parallel hybrid can get by with much smaller motors than a power split hybrid, it has to have more gearing than a power split hybrid, it can be less smooth, and automakers that try to get by without any starter/generator end up having products that are jerky to drive. See Nissan's parallel hybrids, for instance - they're strong hybrids, so they can start rolling under electric, but if they need to start the engine AFTER they get rolling, they do it by dropping the clutch while rolling, which works, but it's not smooth at all. And, the end result can be hesitation to accelerate, too, when the driver changes what they're doing.
     
  13. William Redoubt

    William Redoubt Senior Member

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    I find the Synergy Drive with the power split device to be a very simple concept. Complications like starter motors, alternators, transmissions (with pumps and clutches) are eliminated (along with their mass). The simplicity is enhanced by the ability to adapt to both highway and city drivescapes. Obviously, if designed for only one drivescape, engineers would optimize the configurations significantly. And its important to recognize that a 10 kw motor is not necessarily two times the physical size or bulk of a 5 kw motor. Like most round things that rely on pi, the laws of proportionality are like magic when designing electric motors!
     
  14. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Hyundai engineers have claimed that the technology to control a parallel hybrid, and be acceptable to buyers, is a recent development. They also decided upon using a HSG over having the M/G do all the work.

    There is also a sizable number of drivers that simply don't like driving a CVT car, and prefer something with stepped gears. More than one CVT car has virtual gearing implemented by software.

    My use of the term size wasn't meant to refer to physical size, but as a relation of the motor or ICE output to that required for the job.

    The core reason for the Prius' is great fuel efficiency is because the ICE is right sized for propelling the car at cruising speeds where it spends most of its operational time. The traditional ICE car has an engine oversized for that job, because it needs extra output during short periods for acceleration and climbing. If we had an ICE PRius using the exact same engine as in the hybrid, the steady state cruising fuel economy would be close to what the hybrid returns. It might return close to the hybrid while accelerating and climbing, but it would take over 15 seconds to get to 60mph, and likely slow down on larger hills.

    While the electric side does improve the efficiency further by recapturing brake energy and allowing periods of ICE off operation, its main purpose to provide the performance the driver expects and wants from the car during those limit periods in which the right sized ICE can't provide it alone.

    The oversized M/Gs in a power split do result in higher weight, but I doubt the difference is meaningful when looking at the entire drive train. They do cost more though. The hybrid premium has dropped in time, but is still around $3000 more than the ICE version. This hurts sales and slows adoption.

    The power split is mechanically simpler than a traditional transmission, but how much more reliable is it than a modern transmission? In terms of efficiency, I suspect stepped transmissions allow better highway fuel economy by having a better final overdrive ratio. Has the ratio range of the HSD ever been published?
     
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  15. William Redoubt

    William Redoubt Senior Member

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    I don't ever recall hearing about a transmission failure (the power split device) on a Prius, except for some 2001 models. I did a search on PC and there are very few threads.

    I just don't think tranny failure is an issue. Motor windings may fail, but that is not the power split device. It is surprisingly simple to rewind a Prius motor, as well.

    The other potential sweet spot for failure would likely be bearings. But again, a search revealed virtually no evidence of regular failure. In automatic transmissions the typical failure points are the clutch packs and friction bands. And the torque converter. None of which is present in the dead simple Synergy Drive.
     
  16. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    It adds another point over the HSD for potential failure, but what is the actual risk of failure in a modern transmission? On anecdotal evidence of automatic transmission failure, I only have my brother's old 2000 Accord. It needed work twice while he had it, but there was design/manufacturing issues with the transmission and V6 combo from those years, and the car had been in a flood. Oh, and a friend's 1980 Blazer.

    When a manufacturer talks about a car's lifespan, they are mostly referring to 150k miles. Several of them also have a 100k mile drive train waranty. For most people's use, that means they are designing a car and its transmission to last 10 years in order to minimize warranty costs.
    Double clutch transmissions don't have a torque converter, and the M/G replaces the one a step transmission would need in a parallel hybrid.
     
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  17. William Redoubt

    William Redoubt Senior Member

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    Last comment: Google transmission recalls, transmission lemons, etc. You are right about anecdotal "evidence." It is worthless.
     
  18. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Did you follow that up googling Prius recalls?
    Toyota recalling 1.9 million Prius cars
    "Toyota is recalling around 1.9 million hybrid Prius cars around the world following the discovery of faulty software in the car's hybrid-control system.
    ...
    Toyota says of the software defect: "In rare circumstances, the hybrid system might shut down while the vehicle is being driven, resulting in the loss of power and the vehicle coming to a stop.""

    350k gen2's were recalled for a bad hybrid system cooling pump. 670k got caught up in the brand wide steering shaft recall.
    There was a recall over the brake accumilator, which I believe pertained more to Toyota hybrids than ICE cars at the time.
    Can't fail to mention the parking brake recall on the new Prius that stopped sales and slowed production.

    Cars contain thousands of parts with many of those parts under computer control. A model being built and having zero problems would be a miracle. HSD has a good track record for reliability, but considering the level of hybrid sales in the US, Prii aren't the reason the average age of the car fleet is over 11 years.

    New cars are pretty reliable today. Even the 'bad' brands are vastly improved compared to a couple decades ago. Odds are in the individual's favor that they won't have a major problem like the transmission with a new car. A Toyota hybrid will have a lower chance of having such a problem, but the increased chance of a problem with an automatic transmission is a lower consideration than gas prices for buyers. That wouldn't be the case if the transmissions were as bad as they were in the past.
     
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  19. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

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    The lithium-upgraded Prius Eco is rated 53 for highway MPG. I thought that was impressive until I saw the Hyundai Ioniq "blue" score:

    59 highway MPG

    Only the manual-shift Honda Insight ever scored higher (61). Hyundai does it by using an exhaust intercooler to improve EGR efficiency by 200%. They also have two separate water jackets for the block & the head, so the block can run hotter (220). Plus each cylinder has multiple holes to inject the fuel where it needs to be.

    LINK: blog caranddriver com / move-over-prius-eco-hyundai-ioniq-hybrid-blue-is-rated-at-58-mpg
     
  20. Samprocat

    Samprocat Active Member

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    Before you post chek first other threads.......
    And for efficiency....if you really ever own Toyota ..you will know that Toyota is on conservative side for MPG....and do much better in real world...where Hyundai is not even making advertising number in real world
     
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