Interesting phrases - LA Times

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by bwilson4web, Aug 20, 2008.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    24,635
    14,015
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Hybrids vs. pedestrians | Up to Speed | Los Angeles Times

    Rather than quote the article in the usual fashion, some interesting phrases showed up this time:
    Although there apparently are no reported cases of a pedestrian being killed after walking in front of a silent-running hybrid, ...

    Suggestions to “bell the hybrid†have been met with derision by some ...

    The committee that the bill would create would include reps from ... . Hybrid owners wouldn’t have a seat at the table.


    I wonder where he might have picked up such clues. <GRINS>

    Bob Wilson
     
  2. Rybold

    Rybold globally warmed member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    2,760
    320
    3
    Location:
    Southern California
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    I honestly think the Cow Bell Manufacturers Association of America is behind this one. There is absolutely no other explanation even remotely as formidable as this explanation. :D
    Forget about the Big Three; we're up against the Big Cow Bell now! :eek:

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Courtney

    Courtney New Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2008
    25
    1
    0
    Location:
    So. Cali
    Vehicle:
    2008 Prius
    Remember... hybrids are particularly dangerous when sitting at idle as the gasoline engine shuts down completely!

    And I am wondering where California finds the time to spend on this issue. Do we even have a budget yet??
     
  4. Dr Ed

    Dr Ed New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2006
    188
    0
    0
    Location:
    Texas
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    What happened to "look both ways before crossing the road?"
     
  5. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2007
    4,319
    1,526
    0
    Location:
    Tampa Bay
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    I
    Keep up the pressure. Those pesky facts somehow got into the media.

    Yesterday, I had the same kind of thing happen. When telling someone that I drove a Prius, they told me that the early Prius's electrocuted emergency worker(s) when cutting out people of a wrecked Prius. My only response is along the lines of you would never find any real documentation of that since it actually never happened. More important, I could recite the number of blind pedestrians killed was the same number....since I knew the facts.
     
  6. dwreed3rd

    dwreed3rd New Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    742
    4
    0
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    Vehicle:
    2008 Prius
    They're concerned about the blind. Looking both ways doesn't work. I'm not avocating the bell. I'm just saying that, like every issue both sides usually have a point. I though it was ridiculous until I was standing next to a Prius one day in a parking lot, talking to my wife. I wasn't paying attention to my surroundings. All of a sudden I went virtigo, got dizzy, and though I was having a stroke or something. It all happened in the matter of a few seconds. Please, I am not prone to things like this and nothing had ever happened to me like that before. It was my brain playing tricks on me, or rather just confused with the conficting input. I had not noticed that the driver of the Prius had gotten in her car. When she backed out my brain saw the motion, but the lack of any noise must have confused it when it tried to process the input and for an instant, only an instant, went into panic mode. Adrenaline and all. Now I know that many of you may poo poo my experience and think it would never happen to you. I was never in any danger. There was plenty of clearence between me and the car. It was no different than the hundreds or thousands of times that a car pulled out while I was standing next to it. EXCEPT! I DID NOT REALIZE THAT IT WAS GOING TO MOVE. It startled the daylights out of me. Now, as I said, I'm not a bell advocate, but I did install back-up alarms on both of my full size vans. One of my biggest fears was backing out of a parking spot at a neighborhood shopping center. My point being consciously or subconsciously your brain may not pickup on the fact that a 3000lb object is moving, or is about to move your way. I didn't believe it was that easy to ignore it until my incident. I'm sure many of you will think that I'm over reacting, but I think our motorcycle friends my be able to help explain some of it. People tune out motorcycles because their brains aren't used to seeing them. People pull out in front of them even when they are in plain sight. This is fact not supposition. It's just that, right or wrong, whether it makes sense or not, whether anyone has been killed yet or not, the fact is that when in thier stealth mode, I can see how an adult, a small child, a pet, your child playing in the driveway, it can happen. It shouldn't, but there is a higher risk, than even the quieter new cars. The parked car still gets you attention when it's started, saying be careful I'm about to move. It's just that after my experience, I can see that it's not if, but when will it happen. With 51 years of driving under my belt, I'm sure that I'm not the only one that has had more than one close call that could/would have been alot more serious if the other party/pedestrian had not heard the car and looked up. Their fault maybe, but I would still have to live with it. I believe/hope a reasonable solution can be found. Well, enough of my diatribe. And I know that anecdotal evidence doesn't carry any weight. I don't want a $2000 6 speaker system that sounds like a Harley coming. But I could live with a low tone buzzer or alarm, not irritating, just audible, at low speeds may be enough to prevent a tragedy. I remember in the 60's when many many people felt seat belts were just as ridiculous, a waste of money and actually more dangerous. I remember a coworker say she'd never wear one, that if she was in an accident and the car caught fire, she didn't want to be trapped by her seatbelt. Alot of those believers are actually still around.
    Well, That's just my experience and my opinion. I plan to put a backup alarm on my Prius. I've been looking at the talking ones. One is rather abusive. I was looking for one that I could record the voice/message. May have to modify/build my own.
     
  7. samiam

    samiam Antipodean Prius Poster

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2007
    2,442
    29
    14
    Location:
    Enn Zed
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    I'd want to see actual data that adding a sound would alter that perceptual illusion. It happens in all sorts of circumstances where there is plenty of sound. As a train pulls out of a station lots of people have the sensation that the station is the thing that is moving. It is the result of your brain mistaking "figure and ground" because you have been sitting stationary for a while, when you finally move, the visual motion is interpreted as the "other" (ground) moving instead of you (the figure). I suspect something similar happened in the experience you describe.
    Not saying it would relate to the blind pedestrian issue, but I suspect road noise from tires would be adequate for many of the sight-impaired.

    I'm just arguing for policy informed by fact rather than opinion.
     
  8. robbyr2

    robbyr2 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2008
    1,198
    148
    0
    Location:
    Commerce City, CO
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    V
    Since I first read about this proposal, I've been listening a lot more to cars and trucks etc. I work downtown and live in the burbs. We have a lot of Prii running around downtown Denver. They are no quieter while in motion than anyone who isn't suffering from road rage or isn't driving a land yacht SUV. When idling yes, they are quieter, but they are almost never the only vehicles in an intersection. And of course, if they aren't running a red light or making a turn ignoring pedestrians I don't think it's going to be much of problem. Even then, if a diesel truck makes a turn ignoring pedestrians, the only difference I can see is that the pedestrians won't know they're about to get hit before they're maimed or die. Once again, the issue of pedestrians getting hit around here is usually the result of: 1) the pedestrian was jay-walking (something a visually-impaired person probably shouldn't be doing), 2) the pedestrian wasn't watching the vehicles coming out of parking garages (all of which are alarmed here in Denver), and 3) the driver was making that turn on red and ignoring pedestrians. And making a lot of noise doesn't always help- we've lost as many pedestrians to light rail trains as we have to cars and trucks, and that's with lots of bells and loudspeakers etc. Finally, there is enough noise most of the time that when idling most 4-cylinder non-hybrids can't be heard either. I know the visually-impaired may have better hearing than I do, but how would you distinguish between all of those noises?

    It is a bit different in a parking lot at a suburban mall or big-box store. Frankly, the visually-impaired are going to be in danger regardless. The only way to be safe in a parking lot is to pretend like you're a duck at the arcade shooting gallery. The cars and trucks are driven by people who are either hurrying to get home or busy looking for a parking space.

    That being said, I think the biggest issue most of us have is with the irrational singling out of hybrids for doing their part to help reduce needless gas waste and air pollution while idling, and being totally unconcerned about the dangers of people not being aware of vehicles backing up. We lost one child here in Commerce City just last year to an uncle's backing up over his 5 year old nephew. Why didn't he have to have a camera like my Prius? On the other hand, I do think it's unfortunate that while in reverse, I have to listen to my Prius beep, but people outside can't hear it (Toyota are you listening?).

    Message to politicians: deal with known, demonstrated safety hazards first. Backup warnings, backup cameras, speed recorders (like in Europe where commercial vehicles have a recorder installed that records the vehicle's speed and the speed limits sent to it by the signs along the highways), etc.
     
  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    24,635
    14,015
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus

    Vertigo is real but primarily a visual effect (well maybe some forms of punk rock ...) and can happen in many different situations. When I was flying, I learned to use and trust my instruments because vertigo can come on so quickly.

    One incident is not to be ignored but neither should it be taken as "the way it is." At some future time, you should try to replicate what happened, not because vertigo is fun but for your own confidence and understanding about what is going on. Let me give you an example.

    Three weeks ago, my wife and I decided to try a spicy chicken from KFC. We didn't care for it, there was curry like spice in it. But about 30 minutes later, my tongue developed a lump that within about two hours led me to drive to the emergency room and allergy treatment. <hummm>

    Ten days later, I ate some spicy chicken wings and went to bed. About six hours later, I woke up with my tongue swollen and again, emergency room. However, the physician noted I was taking Prinivil, a blood pressure medication. A swollen tongue is a characteristic of Prinivil reaction and gave me a prescription for a different medication.

    After being off of Prinivil for a week, I again had a meal of spicy chicken wings and the next day, met with my family physician. The good news: I'm not allergic to spicy food. The bad news: I'm allergic to Prinivil.

    So try to repeat the test, find out if this was a one-time incident or something you'll have to live with. BTW, ordinary cars can move without sound too when parked on a slope. But often, just knowing of a sensitivity, you can manage it and not be taken by surprise.

    Bob Wilson
     
  10. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2006
    18,058
    3,052
    7
    Location:
    Northern Michigan
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    If you were blind this wouldn't have happened. :rolleyes: Seriously, though, I've had this same thing happen with normal cars, and semis too. No one is ever going to accuse a diesel powered semi truck of being too quiet. It's simply a matter of being visually surprised or confused. If everyone used backup alarms, the noise would cause more confusion than good.

    To add to the flying stories, I've had so much vertigo when flying that I was sure I was upside down. Only my training kept me from rolling the aircraft. You have to believe your instruments.

    After a week of sailing, I can't walk a straight line on dry land. I have fallen from my chair at dinner, when the room suddenly "lurched" to one side. Of course the room didn't really lurch (this isn't California), but my poor confused brain was accustomed to the motion at sea and expected the same on dry land. The lack of motion gets interpreted as motion.

    Tom
     
  11. dwreed3rd

    dwreed3rd New Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    742
    4
    0
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    Vehicle:
    2008 Prius
    I understand that affect. Yes! I've had similar experiences, but never to the level. The others were, "Dang, I should have been paying more attention" kind of experiences. This was a "Wow, I never even heard her start the car" experience. The point that I was trying to make was that it came in under my audible radar(analogy) easier than a I would have expected. I'm not talking about "Death Race 2000" conditions. I'm only talking about neighborhood parking lot conditions and speed. I'm mearly pointing out that it took me off guard. We use all of our senses, day to day, to keep ourselves aware of our surroundings, and potential dangers. The incident made me aware that the Prius does come in under the normal audible level w/o the ICE running. I didn't think it could possibly be an issue. My experience made me aware that it can come in under anyone's audible radar, that we're normally used to. And even could be a greater hazrad to the visually impaired. Again, I'm only talking about parking lot, low speed, crosswalk type situations; not intersections or highway. Non-hybrids can be just as stealthy depending on speed, tires and surrounding noises under these conditions. I was just passing on my personal experience. I now realize that it is a fact, not a myth, that a hybrid, in EV mode, can move arround w/o the usual starting and low speed noises that other cars produce. And, that I, as the driver behind the wheel, need to be aware, and take that into concideration. I installed back-up alarms on both of my full size vans. I really don't like backing out of a parking space in busy, congested, parking lots. Alot bigger blind spot than the Prius. I would rather the interior backup alarm be external. I plan the turn off the interior back-up alarm but plan to install an exterior one. I've been looking at the "speaking ones". One is quite rude". I'm trying to find one I could modify with my own recording. Anyway, We will have the rear camera, but I'm still a little concerned about children. Yeh! It's the parents responsibility, but I would hate to have to live with it if something happened, and it does, even with non-hybrids. The backup lights can be hard to see under some sunlight conditions. And you cannot deny that the Prius is can be alot quieter under starting and moving at slow speeds conditions. I would rather be safe than sorry. It's a matter of choice. I don't propose a $2000 6 speaker warning system that sounds like a Harley coming. But I believe that I could live with a low tone audible, non-obnoxious beep, at say, under 11mph in ev mode. Perhaps there is a reasonable compromise, perhaps not. Just my observation and thought. You have to follow your own drummer.
    P.S. Just to emphasize. It's not about the illusion. I'm not talking about avoiding the illusionen. The illusion simply pointed out to me that the Prius IS different and can be alot quieter starting and moving around at slow speeds, than I expected. I simply choose not to ignore this, as a fact, and understand that, as the driver behind the wheel, I have a responsibiliy to be aware that the quietness of the Prius could represent an increased hazard to anyone, not just the hearing impaired. I in no way am implying that I endorse any of the overkill legislation. Just the fact that the Prius reduces the input to one of our major early warning senses. And reduces the only major early warning sense of the visually impaired. Of course they'll still have their sense of feel, at least briefly,
     
  12. dwreed3rd

    dwreed3rd New Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    742
    4
    0
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    Vehicle:
    2008 Prius
    As I just mentioned in my previous post, it wasn't about the illusion. And that I have experience with the backup alarms, and annoying as they are, they work. Years of carpooling soccer/basdeball kids. Everyone knew when the Big Blue Van was backing out. Even worse today with the peds totally involved on their cell phones. Everyone is in a hurry today. Everyone can't back out at once, even though they try. And perhaps even in the "confusion" they may look up.
    Thanks for your post. I always enjoy hearing, oops!, reading your views and opinions. I like to try to understand a subject from all prespectives. That's probably one of my annoyances. I usually can see some validity to all sides. Except for that total scams, at least. Or some of the governments kneejerk fixes that cause more problems than they fix. I may or may not agree with your opinion on a subjrct, but I will always try to understand and respect it. Which probably causes me to become annoyed when I see others so opinionated that they've lost the ability to see an issue from other perspectives. Anyway, don't want to :deadhorse:. Hope you have a good day! :bolt:
     
  13. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    24,635
    14,015
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus


    This stuff we agree:
    Here is one of the 25 fatal backup accident photos:
    [​IMG]
    You will notice the top right photo shows:

    • rear bumper impact zone
    • right below, the engine exhaust
    • in the impact zone, the ultrasonic object detector that was off
    In this case, there was a 13% grade so the SUV had the engine running to get up the grade. The kid was on the sidewalk approaching the engine exhaust side of the car. The driver didn't stop until he saw the kids body in front of the SUV.

    Other photos show the driver had no chance to see the kid from inside the car. The engine noise was not enough to stop this accident. So what "magic flute" would have over sounded the engine exhaust and prevented this accident? In other communications, the blind already complain they can not locate the backup "beeps" (see NHTSA testimony from June 23.)

    This accident happened because the driver didn't know the kid was there. They'd turned off their one backup safety device, the ultrasonic object detector, but given the approach angle and narrow view, even if working, the detector might not have given the driver enough of warning.
    Regulations.gov - search
    NHTSA-2008-0108-0020.2 - Chidester report (grim reading!)
    I'm an advocate of the wireless, safety zone, based upon keyfob technology because: (1) it lets everyone know of the hazard, the driver, the pedestrian, and any by-standers; (2) it works for all keyfob equipped cars, about 80% of all cars on the road; (3) it is a software change to the existing vehicle electronics; and (4) it also handles high-speed vehicles, the kind that kill as well as deadly back-over accidents.

    The facts and data say we have a problem and it needs to be addressed. But today, 4,700 pedestrians die each year from noisy cars already. This type of legislation only ensures the carnage continues.

    Bob Wilson
     
  14. dwreed3rd

    dwreed3rd New Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    742
    4
    0
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    Vehicle:
    2008 Prius
    Bob! I agree with you completely! It's was just that some seem to not want to admit there is even a problem. Thank for your comments! I sincerely enjoy the constructive dialog.
     
  15. Dr Ed

    Dr Ed New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2006
    188
    0
    0
    Location:
    Texas
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Making sweeping changes to the auto manufacturing industry to accommodate sightless people is extreme and will not solve the problem. Why do we not put huge, bright colored lights on all cars for deaf pedestrians to see better because they cannot hear oncoming traffic? How about making all cars top speed at 5 MPH to allow wheelchair-bound people more time to navigate out of traffic? It all comes down to the driver. You can put all the bells and whistles on a car and someone will still get hurt if the driver is an idiot. If the driver is careful but someone still does not see the oncoming car, we already have an emergency alert device called "horn."
     
  16. Devil's Advocate

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2005
    922
    10
    1
    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    I'll just open a hybrid dealership on the NV border. Screw CA, nut jobs.

    So what if the Prius is "silent" when its stopped at a light, what are they saying, that Prius drivers are just going to run over blind people. Pedestrians walked out in front of my Acura Integra and Honda Accord ALL THE TIME!!!!

    The blind should be required to wear flashing strobe lights so drivers can take mope care around them!!!!

    Hey, how's that CA budget going?
     
  17. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    24,635
    14,015
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    A cynic might suggest "let CA do what they want," and block it in all other states and the Federal government. With Prius sales shutdown in CA, there will be plenty for the rest of the states and Prius prices might become reasonable. <grins>

    Bob Wilson
     
  18. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    24,635
    14,015
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    The best answer might be to call the Governor's office and point out:

    HR 5734 is already in Congress and we don't need to waste any more California tax payer money on SB 1174. SB 1174 is a redundant waste of time and money and we might as well let the Federal Government do this one.

    Bob Wilson
     
  19. douglas001001

    douglas001001 smug doug

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2007
    222
    4
    0
    Location:
    Chicago
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    The thing I think is funny about all of this is when are hybrids in silent running mode? All of us know that it is in low load, low speed, or slowing to a stop. So drivers are either intentionally trying to stay in quiet mode (actively driving and paying attention), or have their foot on the brake or are slowing down. No wonder there haven't been any incidents.

    But, if the representatives for the blind say that they need to be aware of the cars then they need to be aware of the cars. Does it matter that their isn't data to support the need?
     
  20. donalmilligan089

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    239
    22
    0
    Location:
    virginia usa
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    When I was a boy my friends and I would stand on a bridge staring down at a fast moving stream and get the effect of flying up stream. Same thing as standing near a moving vehicle with out perephile vision. Waiting for my salvage 2005 to be started so I can png. don
     
Loading...