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Internal combustion engine vibration in Neutral

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by techasist, Oct 20, 2017.

  1. techasist

    techasist New Member

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    I own a 08 Gen2 with 142000Kms. I have been doing all service at home since it hit 100000kms, previously was done by Toyota dealership. I always use full synthetic oil 5W20.

    Up until about 100000kms the fuel consumption was a regular 4.9-5.1L/100kms, give or take.
    After that point, fuel consumption has slowly started to increase, not sure why, but kids have changed school and there is more traffic on my commute; maybe that's the reason. I'll investigate fuel consumption later.

    Anyway, last two weeks I had problems with the ICE, noticed a bad vibration/shaking at first start in the morning (by the way, I live in Queensland, Australia where it's rarely less than 10 degrees Celsius). I looked up similar posts on PriusChat and found a multitude of owners complaining about shaking ICE, bad misfire, etc... My symptoms were precisely what "Luscious Garage" on Youtube was describing, engine misfire with noise coming from the planetary gear being thrown around the transmission. I never had any triangle of death or engine warning light come on.

    I changed the spark plugs (same as previous ones, NGK Laser Iridium IFR5T11), not much change to engine behaviour and about same fuel consumption. I checked the spark plugs after a couple of days and found that 1 and 4 were a bit dirty. I changed all four ignition coils (aftermarket ones, much cheaper than OEM Denso) and the ICE now runs smoothly, even when the engine is doing its first warmup.


    The problem that I now find is this:

    Force start the ICE by pushing down on accelerator and put the transmission in Neutral. Once the engine settles at idle, I can feel the car shaking slightly (like when the engine engages and disengages while driving) every 4-5 seconds. Is that behaviour normal? I thought that in Neutral gear, the ICE was completely decoupled from the transmission, and therefore no shaking should be felt.
    Can someone try to replicate this and confirm that it's normal. If not, what can be done to make the transmission and transition from electric to ICE ultra-smooth?
     
  2. edthefox5

    edthefox5 Senior Member

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    It’s not normal.

    If it had a misfire it would have throw a check engine light. The fact that you are not seeing any codes means it’s mechanical and out of monitoring range.

    Has the car ever ran so low on engine oil it threw a check engine light? How much oil does it consume?

    Check the inverter fluid for good movement in the reservoir. Clean the throttle body real good by using carb cleaner soaked rags not paper towels. Replace the trans fluid.

    Put the car in inspection mode it will then idle continuously giving you the chance to listen closely to the engine both top and bottom. Listen to it closely under the car.

    Go on you tube search: Prius inspection mode.

    The oem coil on plug {cop} is expensive because it is of much better quality than aftermarket. Do not be surprised if they quickly fail. Or do not fix your issue 100%.

    I would not use 20 weight oil in an old Prius. It’s eating oil since it was dealer serviced in its life. Use 5-30.
     
  3. techasist

    techasist New Member

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    Thanks for the great advice about the oil, but the engine uses between 10 and 30 millilitres of oil between every service; so I don't think that counts as "using oil". I have been through all these steps of idling the car in Maintenance mode or in Neutral already.

    Just in case someone else wants to know the steps, here they are:

    Toyota thought of this and, with a special procedure, you can put a Prius into Maintenance Mode, idling the engine until the operator turns the iginition off. It’s a simple procedure:

    • Turn the vehicle to accessory mode, Ready-off. On 2001-2003 Prii this is two clicks forward of the key, on 2004+ this is pressing the start button twice with your foot off the brake pedal. The display will not show Ready but will otherwise be lit, the car in park.
    • Depress the accelerator two times fully.
    • Put the vehicle in neutral.
    • Depress the accelerator two times fully.
    • Put the vehicle back into park.
    • Depress the accelerator two times fully.

    My simple question is can someone put their car in Neutral and let the engine idle and see if they can replicate this recurring vibration. Thanks.
     
  4. dolj

    dolj Senior Member

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    Just on the lingo, just so a consistent terminology is used and understood across all posts:
    This mode is correctly called Inspection Mode.
    This is correctly called IG-ON. ACC mode is: one press of the power button with the foot off the brake.

    READY mode is one press of the power button with foot ON the brake; from any other mode.

    Hope that helps.
     
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  5. 05PreeUs

    05PreeUs Senior Member

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    Not normal.

    What is the HV battery meter doing during this time? Increasing slowly and steadily = Good, not = bad.
     
  6. valde3

    valde3 Senior Member

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    Engine should idle smooth just as in any other car.

    Probably you need the throttle cleaning. When the throttle body is dirty throttle plate can get stocked and then ECU overcorrects it causing erratic idle.
     
  7. 05PreeUs

    05PreeUs Senior Member

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    Erratic idle and a vibration are not the same concern and you are not going to fix an engine vibration by cleaning a TB, even if due to a misfire.
     
  8. valde3

    valde3 Senior Member

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    The way I understood, it was first misfiring and then after changing plugs and coils, it now only shakes lightly every 4…5 seconds. That could be just caused by dirty throttle body.
     
  9. 05PreeUs

    05PreeUs Senior Member

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    No, no it cannot. The TB on ANY modern engine is nothing more than an air regulator, the idle speed is not controlled, much less influenced by the TB unless some mouth-breathing Cro-Magnon messed with the set-screw. The IAC (Idle Air Control) device is used by the ECM to make sure the idle speed is steady, now if that is sticking you can get rolling, hunting etc at idle. If the engine experiences "under-run" (RPM well below idle speed) that certainly can present as a vibration, but again unrelated to the TB, but directly related to a malfunctioning IAC device.
     
  10. valde3

    valde3 Senior Member

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    No.
    Prius (and many other modern cars) do have an electric throttle body. With an electric throttle body there’s no need for separate idle air control valve as ECU can just control the throttle to control the idle speed.

    Separate IAC was needed when there still was a cable running from throttle pedal to throttle body but idle was already controlled by ECU.
     
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  11. 05PreeUs

    05PreeUs Senior Member

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    Apologies.

    Don't know what I was smoking........ obviously I forgot the Prii are Drive by Wire.
     
  12. techasist

    techasist New Member

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    Update:

    I have cleaned the throttle body and MAF sensor. No change in the fuel consumption.
    One new symptom that occurred after cleaning the MAF sensor is that the engine did not shut down when I stopped the car. It kept running until I put the vehicle in Park.

    Therefore I'm guessing the 12V battery might be in the way out. I checked the 12V battery after sitting overnight, using the MFD, and found the voltages to be:

    No load: 12.0V
    Load (headlights high beam and brakes): 11.6 - 11.4V
    Ready ON: 14.1V

    Upon removing the load, the battery immediately returns to 12.0V.
     
  13. 05PreeUs

    05PreeUs Senior Member

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    It's DEAD!
     
  14. dolj

    dolj Senior Member

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    Not necessarily dead, but definitely flat. Charging* and then repeating the load test will determine whether it needs to be replaced.


    * with a modern automatic multi step charge/maintenance cycle with an AGM setting capable of supplying up to 4 Amps.
     
  15. valde3

    valde3 Senior Member

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    Engine not shutting down after throttle clean is pretty normal in a Prius. ECU needs to relearn idle postion before it commands the engine to shut down.

    12.0V is too low for 12V battery. Charge (it may or may not help) or replace it.
     
  16. 05PreeUs

    05PreeUs Senior Member

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    Folks, a "12v" battery that measures 12.0v open circuit, is DEAD; as in, get a new one. It will never be reliable again, ever.
     
  17. techasist

    techasist New Member

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    "Engine not shutting down after throttle clean is pretty normal in a Prius. ECU needs to relearn idle postion before it commands the engine to shut down."

    Thanks for the info about ECU, I didn't know about that.

    I hooked up my trusty multimeter to the 12V line of the car today and took a few readings.
    Readings are very close to MFD readings, except that my multimeter has 2 decimal places.

    No load: 12.18V
    Load (headlights high beam and fog lights): 11.58V (left the lights on for about 15 minutes without the voltage dropping)
    Ready ON: 14.0V

    According to these voltage readings, it shows that the battery is not too bad (2V per cell / 6 cell battery). Maybe one of the cells is a bit low. I'm going to take it get tested at a battery shop.

    While driving around I recorded 13.88V to 14.02V.

    What I still can't understand is how can a bad 12V battery affect the way the ICE runs. I understand that the fuel consumption would be affected since the traction battery would have to endlessly recharge a damaged auxiliary battery, but not that the ICE would have issues running.

    The Prius ICE is the same as a normal car where once the engine is on and running, the alternator is providing all the electrical power required to power the ECU, ignition and fuel supply, the battery can be disconnected and the vehicle still runs normally.

    In the Prius, the role of the alternator is done by an inverter which steps-down the traction battery voltage to 14V (correct voltage needed to recharge a lead-acid battery). Therefore once the Prius is in Ready-ON state, the auxiliary battery has no purpose on the way the ICE runs. No matter if there is an auxiliary battery connected or not, the system will still work. Is this right or does the Prius has some special use for the 12V battery?

    I also checked the new spark plugs today after driving 350kms since installing them last week. They are all super clean.

    I ordered a OBDII Bluetooth reader to see what more I can learn from what's happening in the engine. My next step will be to investigate the fuel injectors and the O2 sensor.
     
    #17 techasist, Oct 25, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2017
  18. dolj

    dolj Senior Member

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    It doesn't, who said it does?
    One more time, an open voltage of 12.1 V indicates a flat (or fully discharged) battery. A fully charged AGM lead/acid battery will be in the 12.9 - 13.2 V range, depending on condition. If the battery self discharges below 12.7 V overnight after charging, then it needs to be replaced eventually, how soon depends on whether you can tolerate being stranded at an inconvenient time.

    The fact that your battery voltage is holding ~11.6 V for a good while while under load indicates your battery is not necessarily toast and could respond well to charging. If you want to get long life out of the 12 V battery, get it on a charger ASAP, and then keep it fully charged. Every day your battery sits in a discharged state is causing damage that will be irreversible quite quickly.

    If you buy into the current marketing blurb that 12 V batteries are maintenance free, then waste resources by doing nothing and retiring what could have been a perfectly good battery to the recyclers earlier that it needs to be.
     
  19. techasist

    techasist New Member

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    I received my OBD2 today, connected it to the car and loaded my phone with the Torque Pro app. I loaded the custom PID values as per posted on this forum.

    I checked codes and results returned no codes.

    I did the "Test Results" and it returns with Oxygen Bank2 Sensor2 Fail 26.00V.
    Also consistently returns with Cylinder 4 misfire (about 30 since last 10 engine starts).

    Any idea what's happening?

    I have brand new spark plugs and coils. No code showing bad injector...

    I also removed the PCV valve today and cleaned it, although it did not really need any cleaning.
     
  20. 05PreeUs

    05PreeUs Senior Member

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    Assuming the coils are all firing and the new plugs are good (you did not crack an insulator during install), you likely have a fuel problem.

    Unless there is an electrical defect in the coil of the injector, there will be no DTC for it. Just because there is/is not a DTC for a given part, does not mean that it is bad/good.

    My advice, swap #4 injector with #1 and see if the misfire moves, or better yet, get a recycled injector from a breaking yard and just replace #4.

    Also, the #2 O2 sensor is either dead or the wiring shorted, unplug it and retest, if the voltage does not change there is a wiring problem.