Iran's Holocaust Conference

They got us on that one...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Black2006 @ Dec 12 2006, 03:47 PM) [snapback]361096[/snapback]</div>

You are free to believe or not believe it ever happened. If you do not understand the current situation and ironies involved then that is your problem.

 

I'd say many of the panelists are more than a bit loony, David Duke not being the least of them. As for the illegality of say denying the holocaust in, say, Germany, well, the reasons seem self-evident. After the holocaust, there were a lot of people with actions to hide. And the sophistication of Nazi propaganda was something to be respected and, therefore, outlawed in its entirety. For a topic one could examine the way WWII atrocities are discussed in both Japan and Germany, the first having no restrictions on speech, the latter having the aforementioned laws. Recently in Japan in about 2000 I believe, there was a great deal of controversy over school textbooks revising the past in a more favorable light.

 

Nobody in the U.S. is going to make it illegal to say the Holocaust never happened, so I really don't see why people are getting upset here. Hell, this is the main reason I give generously to the ACLU.

 

Actually, the current conference seems to have an agenda other than historical accuracy:

"Just as the USSR disappeared, soon the Zionist regime will disappear," Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said to the applause of the participants.

 

“History is written by the victors.â€
~Winston Churchill

Unfortunately, when it comes to academic environments, the popular opinion is often seen as the only correct one - there really isn't anything a government can do about that. And at least in America, people can say whatever they want about the Holocaust, legally. People might not like it, or boo them off stage, but they can still say it. Thats not the case in other countries, which is sad, but i truly believe that we'll get there one day, and the whole world will benefit from the freedoms we take for granted. That day is probably a long way off, and i may not even live to see it, but it will come.

That being said, I'd find it interesting to know what they use to support their arguments. I can't really see how they can argue that there was no Holocaust - at least the evidence for that has been shoved down my throat my whole life. As for arguing that the numbers were inflated... I could see that. The bigger the numbers, the bigger the impact it has on the average person, which would directly lead to more homegrown support for the war.

Remember, back then there wasn't nearly as much free flow of communication, simply because the infrastructure for it hadn't been invented yet. Imagine if we didn't have the internet today, or cell phones, and even house phones were fairly new. Would Bush have been able to tell us there were WMD's in Iraq, inflate numbers in order to increase support for the war? I could very easily see the politicians of the time orchestrating events to convince the public they were doing the right thing.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eagle33199 @ Dec 12 2006, 06:22 PM) [snapback]361162[/snapback]</div>

I'm not entirely certain, but I don't think the camps were a big motivater for us in WWII (I welcome correction on this). I believe most knowledge of that reached the general public after the war's end or near it. At the time, getting into the war on behalf of the Jews was not a popular or marketable idea.

The purpose of the current conference seems more akin to propaganda and establishing a "international scholarly" pedigree that publishes articles attacking the holocaust as myth, thereby invalidating some of Israel's claim its existence. I think it's mistaken to think this is being put on for the western press at all. I imagine the stories from this conference will receive a largely uncritical response and dissemination in the Arab press.

And for the record, I'm no fan of the way Israel treats the Palestinians. I do find this conference scary all the same.

 

There was a commentary on the radio here in Seattle, not sure if it was a local program or NPR's All Things Considered....anyway, a Palestinian Arab who studied at the University of California at San Jose, remarked that he had never heard about the holocaust until he came to America. He was astonished at how limited his Arab education had been, especially regarding something like the Holocaust. He understood that the reason he was never taught anything about it was because doing so could be considered legitimizing the State of Israel. He noted also that Israeli kids are taught nothing about Arab history for the same reasons. Neither side can legitimize the other without jeopardizing their own claims to the same piece of real estate. Both Israel and the Arab nations seek to control the future by controlling, denying or ignoring the past.

He asks a most legitimate question: why should modern Palestinians, who had nothing to do with the Holocaust, be penalized by an Israeli occupation because Europe can't or couldn't deal with its colonialism and racism.

Bob

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bob Allen @ Dec 12 2006, 03:25 PM) [snapback]361199[/snapback]</div>

This statement misrepresents history. The Jews lived in what is now Israel for thousands of years until they were deported by the Romans when the second temple was destroyed near the beginning of the common era. There has always been a Jewish presence in the Land of Israel, especially in communities such as Jerusalem, Hebron, Safed and Tiberias. Modern time Jewish return to the homeland commenced in the late nineteenth century, before the Holocaust. A substantial number of the Jews who migrated to the State of Israel after its founding came from Arab lands such as Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco, all of which had substantial Jewish populations before their mass emigration.

 

Human denial is truly amazing. If people can deny the occurrence of such obvious and factual past events such as the Holocaust or the moon landing, how much easier it must be for them to deny future events, such as the catastrophic results of global warming?

(trying to make this thread more human and less political)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MegansPrius @ Dec 12 2006, 02:37 PM) [snapback]361169[/snapback]</div>

The average American did not know about the camps (and in fact, some argue that most of the American military did not, as evidenced by the lack of bombing raids on the camps). One of the things that Americans were ashamed of after WWI was the overblown stories of German atrocities (throwing babies on bayonets, etc.) So many Americans thought the tales of the mistreatment of Jews in Germany and Poland were overblown.

The camps existed, and the Holocaust happened. It does not need a conference or more study.

We no longer have to entertain fools who want to postulate that the earth is flat, as we have conclusive proof that it is not. The oddball that claims it is flat is free to do so, of course, unless he tries to somehow parlay that belief into a campaign to kill all the round-earthers. When they do that, it is appropriate to put society's stamp of disapproval on their belief, and say that we will not spend tax money in our colleges, provide government grant money, or otherwise subsidize their flat-earth belief. And it is appropriate for us to call them fools, because while it may seem impolite, it is the most polite thing we can do.

My father in law was with the troops that liberated one of the camps; Dachau, I believe. One of my life's highpoints was seeing him destroy the belief of a certain neo-nazi (one of his grandsons) in describing in great detail what he saw. All the arguing in the world could never take the place of a trusted eye-witness to the events.

The Shoah Foundation at USC has recorded 52,000 survivors and witnesses of the events of that era so the clever words of men would not overpower the vivid memories of those that were there. We dishonor them, and especially the ones they are speaking for, when we give any credence to the fools who simply deny they existed.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Dec 13 2006, 12:58 AM) [snapback]361351[/snapback]</div>

Dachau was liberated by the 442/552 regimental combat team, which consisted of Japanese American soldiers.
Ironically,many of them had been recruited from( and their families still resided in)American Concentration camps .

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mojo @ Dec 13 2006, 04:34 AM) [snapback]361394[/snapback]</div>

I hesitate to call the American internment camps concentration camps to prevent some from equating what was the goal of german concentrations camps from that of American internment camps.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Black2006 @ Dec 13 2006, 04:36 PM) [snapback]361811[/snapback]</div>

No disrespect intended, but I don't think fshagan was saying the holocaust did not need further study; his post even ends with a link to the Shoah foundation, which is collecting addtional information to this day. And the new materials from East Germany and the Soviet Union, as you mention, are continuing to enrich our knowledge.

I think what he meant was that "Did the holocaust happen?" is not worthy of study. While I can imagine any number of holocaust conferences being invaluable to the historical record, the current one in Iran with an ex grand wizard of the KKK on its panel is not one those. I frankly think this conference is being held to obscure the facts of the period, not enlighten them.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MegansPrius @ Dec 13 2006, 03:46 PM) [snapback]361816[/snapback]</div>

Isn't David Duke a Democrat :lol:

Freedom of speech is always cool rack to hang your hat when trying to disprove something as disproveable as the Holocaust. I love those that use it as a rallying cry :lol: The gas chambers never existed. The tatoos were never imprinted. The mass graves were empty. The pictures - all fake.