Is paying Income tax Unconstitutional???

I watched this video some time ago and was unconvinced. Anyhow, let's say it is unconstitutional. Not paying taxes would be immoral. Leave me out of it.

 

No but it is not much fun! :angry:

 

Sorry, urban legend

 

In a nutshell, the Supreme Court is the final arbiter of constitutionality of any law. The Supreme Court has ruled that the income tax is constitutional, and therefore it is. Anyone who has an argument to the contrary would have to bring it to the Court and convince the Court, before their position became law.

But since the same folks who insist that the income tax is unconstitutional, usually also insist that paper money is worthless because, according to them, only commodities and metals have "real" value, I always suggest to them an easy way out: They can pay their income tax with "worthless" paper money! The government will be satisfied, and they will have given nothing of "real" value to the government. They never seem satisfied with my suggestion. I wonder why.

 

I think they touch on this in the book "The Creature From Jekyll Island". One of my friend's dad is really into this stuff and shows me all the data he has collected. It's pretty interesting and from what I can tell it was true but obviously you are not supposed to know that and it really won't matter anyway since they (the system) will just punish you if you refuse to pay. I mean really, who in their right mind would give up a meal ticket they have been recieving for 100 years LOL.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ Mar 5 2007, 09:05 AM) [snapback]400359[/snapback]</div>

Hey, the law is nothing more than stuff written down by the people who run the country. At the start, they said no income tax. Then they changed it to have an income tax. Legislators wrote it down, the Supreme Court said okay, and that makes it the law.

There's nothing holy or sacred about the law, and plenty of laws are bad for the country. Laws basically exist so the people in power stay in power, and government exists so the rich can exploit the poor.

But it's all legal: the exploitation, the tax, the paper money, because the law is whatever the law says it is. The law is bunk, just like religion is bunk. But there's not much point in arguing that the law is illegal because the government has enough guns to make it very hot for anyone who does not pay up. Religion is bunk, but churches are real and televangelists make good money. The law is bunk, but government and its prisons are real.

Refuse to pay your taxes and I'll applaud you. But arguing over whether it's "legal" or not is pointless.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Mar 5 2007, 10:19 AM) [snapback]400427[/snapback]</div>

LOL, good post Daniel.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Mar 5 2007, 01:19 PM) [snapback]400427[/snapback]</div>

The question is will you defend him in court? Try it, don't pay your taxes and test the Constitutionality of it :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Mar 5 2007, 10:38 AM) [snapback]400440[/snapback]</div>

Are any of us that brave and rich? :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ Mar 5 2007, 01:43 PM) [snapback]400444[/snapback]</div>

common ground -

you see i see the irs and an example of too much governmental power - of social engineering gone wild - of using the limitless power of government that our foudning fathers warned us of being used against the people. almost what socialized medicine will look like.

no, i would not touch the irs - they are God-like. i pay an extra 0.5% to 1% on top of my taxes to be safe.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Mar 5 2007, 11:01 AM) [snapback]400460[/snapback]</div>

I agree with you completely here. Common ground indeed. Please realize that in my environmental based concerns I hold this same opinion that it should not be the governments job to make laws and regulations to reward or punish global stewardship, it should be something we just do because it is right. Unfortunately not enough people understand the complete network and context in which they are a part of and such laws become neccessary especially with regards to the multinational corps who exploit our resources and our health for profit. No conspiracy theories here, just facts.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Mar 5 2007, 10:38 AM) [snapback]400440[/snapback]</div>

I cannot defend him in court because I am not a lawyer. And as I said (but of course you never actually read my posts) the tax is constitutional because the Court says it is. Case decided.

There are people who defy the IRS, and different people have different ways of going about it.

1. Some people (like a man I once knew) file a true and correct tax form, but refuse to pay. They cannot jail you for refusing to pay as long as you file a correct tax form. They attach his wages or property or bank account and take his money, along with added fines, but he took pleasure in the belief (which I can neither confirm nor deny) that it cost them more to take his money than what they actually got. It cost him more, but that was a price he was willing to pay. And he took pleasure in taking a stand.

2. Some people intentionally live below the taxable level. Not easy in our gimme society. They thereby give no financial support to the government, and they are breaking no law. I know a couple who lives this way. In a summer, working as skilled carpenters, they make enough to live on for the year. They have a lot of free time, very few possessions, and the satisfaction of not paying for war.

3. Some people openly refuse to file a tax form. They can, and sometimes do, go to prison. I do not know anyone personally who does this, but I know of such people.

4. Some people cheat on their tax forms. They risk fines, prison, or both, if caught, but if they are careful, can often get away with it. I'm sure we all know people who do this. I do not know specific people doing it, but it is so common that I imagine some of my friends or acquaintances do. I bet some of your friends do. I bet some members of PC do.

My tax forms are incomprehensible to me. I use a reputable CPA who I think would not cheat, and I specifically instruct him not to cheat. I dislike paying taxes, but my income is large enough for me. I don't need the extra money cheating might bring. I do have sizeable holdings in municipal bond mutual funds, which are tax-free, and that reduces my tax obligation a bit.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Mar 5 2007, 12:21 PM) [snapback]400504[/snapback]</div>

I knew somebody who did this. He said that if you don't file a tax return, you don't have to pay taxes, and he really believed it. I wonder where he is now...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dragonfly @ Mar 5 2007, 05:09 PM) [snapback]400624[/snapback]</div>

Your friend may have believed it. A few crackpots do. But there are other people who refuse to file, as a form of protest, and are prepared to go to prison for it, as the civil rights protesters were willing to go to jail, and as many in the anti-nuclear movement are willing to go to prison for their beliefs.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Mar 5 2007, 12:21 PM) [snapback]400504[/snapback]</div>

And these people are usually called "prisoners".

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Mar 5 2007, 09:24 PM) [snapback]400739[/snapback]</div>

See my full post. Only categories 3 and 4 can be imprisoned. Category 1 can be fined or have their property taken, but cannot be jailed. Category 2 is committing no crime at all and the IRS cannot touch them. And the first two categories are far more numerous than category 3. And category 4 usually get away with it, since there are not enough prisons to lock up everyone who cheats in small ways on their taxes.

 

An (in)famous creationist and his wife were recently tried for this (ans, I assume, the associated fraud.) I think he got 10 years.

I feel sort of guilty about it, but I was *thrilled* to hear him get real time - granted, I think his sins lay not in the fraud he committed but in his corruption of youth. I once found these at a diner:
http://www.notgneiss.com/pics/front.jpg
http://www.notgneiss.com/pics/back.jpg

One tax evasionist not worthy of applause...

 

History of the Income Tax in the United States..
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005921.html

The Law that never was.
http://www.thelawthatneverwas.com/new/theman.asp

http://debtism.com/social-security/social-...petual-debt.htm

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Mar 6 2007, 12:01 PM) [snapback]400921[/snapback]</div>

Do everybody a favor and do NOT become, say, a policeman when you grow up. Anyone with such shakey knowledge of our basic legal system should stay far, far away from it.