Is poverty a root cause of terrorism?

While I think there are a lot of poor people who buy into the terrorist thing, if you look at who is doing the heavy lifting for Al Qaeda - it's often the ones who aren't poor. Weren't some of the 9/11 hijackers from wealthy families?

Poverty might encourage you to throw rocks and shoot guns. It's religious extremism that causes you to blow up buildings and crash airplanes into civilian targets.

 

I certainly don't know the answer, but we should remember that just because they were doctors does not mean that poverty has not affected their lives. Imagine crossing the world to a new culture so that you can become financially successful, while seeing the rest of your family wither away in the third world with no hopes of ever completely escaping the overwhelming poverty that you, yourself grew up in.

Now add religious extremism and anti-western rhetoric as the "cause" for your families suffering, and maybe that doctor figures he owes it to his people to become a martyr?

Just a scenario...

 

Poverty makes a fertile ground for recruiting troops, especially suicide bombers and other "what do I have to loose" types.

Tom

 

I think poverty (and social injustice) is a bigger contributor to revolution than to terrorism.

 

War = terrorism, and terrorism = war. When they do it to us we call it terrorism. When we do it to them, we call it war. They, of course, reverse the terminology. But it's the same thing going and coming. The root causes are never simple, but in the Middle east today it has a lot to do with fighting over who gets the land, and who controls the oil. But whether you kill people by tying a bomb around your waist and getting on a bus, or by dropping bombs out of airplanes, or by crashing planes into buildings, you're still killing people, and since people will hate you for killing their loved ones, the violence spirals upwards.

If you kick a dog long enough, it will bite you. We've been kicking the Middle East for far too long to have any legitimate claim to being an innocent victim.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jul 2 2007, 01:58 AM) [snapback]471364[/snapback]</div>

This blame America thing is tiring and simple-minded. The issues go much deeper and broader than just blaming us for their own woes.

There is a HUGE difference between waging war and waging terrorism - you should be aware of them. If you give their conduct of war [terrorism] moral equivalence equal to the way we conduct war you are aiding and abetting our enemies. Perhaps we should lower our conduct of this conflict to their level and start targeting mosques, funerals, buses, weddings and malls for destruction - but then again you probably think we do that already.... you believe abu graib is the rallying cry to highlight the conduct of all American soldiers....

There is little here involved with "who gets the oil" - they have it already. There is little to do with "who gets the land" if you are referring to Israel since the Arabs control over 99% of the land of the middle east. What it is is a war of ideologies - the same war that has been ongoing for centuries.

Anyhow, God Bless America where you are free to believe what you want to, and are free to express those views without fear. Try doing that in Iran or Gaza today.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(formerVWdriver @ Jul 1 2007, 09:26 PM) [snapback]471235[/snapback]</div>

I am sure it wont hurt his practice unless he practices in the airport - and even then i am sure most people would understand why he should get searched there - it is not like little old white nuns are blowing themselves up or driving planes into tall buildings.

My partner was born in that part of the world and my anesthesiologist is from Pakistan - they expect to get searched at the airport - they expect to be profiled and when they are not they get upset. They are mortified by the actions of their fellow countrymen and Muslims - this AM the first thing they said was how embarresed they were at the attacks in England and Scotland....

There should be profiling - with limited resources - they should be employed to cover the greatest % of potential targets as possible - until we can screen and everyone equally as effectively. Again, it seems to be the same people over and over again trying to kill innocent civilians in western countries, no???

 

Innocent children and civilians create terrorism. If everyone were forced into our military at birth and kept in until death, that would end terrorism in our country.



On a more serious note, it's about power. If it were pure ideals, why hasn't bin laden, hussein obama or any of the other leaders blown themselves up for the cause?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(qbee42 @ Jul 1 2007, 09:19 PM) [snapback]471258[/snapback]</div>

That is completely wrong. Suicide bombers are middle and upper-middle class educated young men (mostly). Saudi's and most gulf state young men are not poor but this is where most of the bombers are coming from. The successful Palestinian bombers are the sons of doctors, accountants, and lawyers. They belive they are being 'patriots' and are willing to go to great lengths to succede. According to Ayman al-Zawahiri, the reason is simple: "The method of martyrdom operation [is] the most successful way of inflicting damage against the opponent and the least costly to the mujahidin in terms of casualties" A recently published paper by Harvard University Professor of Public Policy Alberto Abadie "cast doubt on the widely held belief that terrorism stems from poverty, finding instead that terrorist violence is related to a nation's level of political freedom." More specifically this is due to the transition of countries towards democratic freedoms. "Intermediate levels of political freedom are often experienced during times of political transitions, when governments are weak, political instability is elevated, so conditions are favorable for the appearance of terrorism".
Some suicide bombers are educated, with college or university experience, and come from middle class homes. Most suicide bombers do not show signs of psychopathology. Indeed, leaders of the groups who perpetrate these attacks search for individuals who can be trusted to carry out the mission; those with mental illnesses are not ideal candidates.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Essayons @ Jul 2 2007, 08:21 AM) [snapback]471430[/snapback]</div>

Interesting. Thanks for straightening out my misconception. This just shows how we (meaning me) view the world through our own values and experiences, and come to false conclusions when the facts seem to defy what we view as logic.

What is your take on Islamic schools in poor neighborhoods that appear to be nothing more than training centers for future terrorists? Also how about the reward money paid to families of suicide bombers? That wouldn't be much of a motivator for rich people. Why do it, if not for incentives to the poor?

Tom

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(qbee42 @ Jul 2 2007, 09:10 AM) [snapback]471443[/snapback]</div>

you hit the nail on the head. It is not a singular state of being like a persons financial status alone that breeds a terrorist. It is the rise of extremist schools of Islam like Wahabism that is a leading factor in the rise of terrorism in Islam. Hence, you see rich AND poor terrorists - it is the religious teachings that create the operating system for the potential terrorist - not their W2.

you must be aware that since Saddams downfall, Palestinian families are not getting those checks in the mail after their kid or mother blows themselves up in a pizzeria or mall in Israel. They still name streets after them though - a kind of non-financial recognition I guess. Kinda sick in my mind, but it is what it is. Even after the incentives are gone, they are doing it - not as successfully, but they are still giving it the good old college try.

So you answered your own question - they do it because it is a religious thing not financial thing. The religion of "peace" is at times not very peaceful, is it?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 2 2007, 04:51 AM) [snapback]471413[/snapback]</div>

Yes, there is: when they do it to us it's "terrorism," and when we do it to them it's "war," and that is the biggest difference there is. Or, when you have hundreds of billions of dollars to spend killing people, it's "war," and when you've got $5 for a stick of dynamite it's "terrorism." According to our side, it's okay to kill people as long as you are wearing a uniform and you have jet planes; but if you can't afford jet planes or uniforms, then it's not. And of course, the possession of jet planes is a big difference indeed. So we are agreed there are big differences.

But either way you are killing people. And while you are certainly free to hold to the belief that it's okay to kill people as long as you do it with hundred-million-dollar jet planes rather than $5 sticks of dynamite, what you cannot get around is the fact that, regardless of who is right and who is wrong, when you kill people their surviving loved ones will hate you for the rest of their lives with a white-hot passion. And this thread is talking about the root causes of "terrorism," (i.e. war waged by people who have no jet planes) and the most critical factor is hate: They have to really really hate you to be willing to blow themselves up just to try to kill you. And the reason they hate us so much is neither envy of our "freedom" nor religious differences: They hate us because we and our Israeli allies have killed so many of them. And the death toll has reached a critical mass where enough people hate us enough to even kill themselves to kill us.

When you sow the wind, you reap the whirlwind.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 2 2007, 04:51 AM) [snapback]471413[/snapback]</div>

They have it and we want it. So we invaded. But because our commander in chief is a moron, we blew it, and now it's all chaos and mayhem.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 2 2007, 04:51 AM) [snapback]471413[/snapback]</div>

When somebody kicks you out of your own house, are you going to leave quietly and let them have it merely because your house is "only one percent" of the neighborhood? If someone fences off your grandmother's grave in the cemetery and says you cannot visit it, are you going to say, "That's okay. We still have the rest of the graveyard?"

Christians have been trying to take Jerusalem from the Arabs for a thousand years. Since all three of the major monotheistic religions regard the city as "holy" on account of their fairy tales, they fight over that bit of land. It is idiotic to fight over one tiny bit of land on account of fairy tales. But they all do it. Now Israel has that bit of land, and refuses to share it, and the Muslims see the Christians as allies of Israel. Nobody over there, or here for that matter, gives a fig about ideologies. They all think god gave them that bit of land, and nobody is willing to let the other guys have it, and nobody in possession of it is willing to share it (though the Ottoman empire allowed Christians and Jews to live there alongside the Muslims and to practice their own religions) so they kill each other over it. And we get involved because there's oil.

You get so fixated on the details of how poor people wage war compared to how rich countries wage war that you lose sight of the fundamental calculus: Violence creates hatred and hatred creates violence. The spiral winds ever upwards and until you understand that there'll be nothing but killing. I'm not about blame. I'm about solutions. And solutions require understanding. And understanding requires that we admit the part we play in the spiral of violence. As long as you insist that "it's all their fault" the upward spiral of violence will continue until we exterminate ourselves.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 2 2007, 08:56 AM) [snapback]471457[/snapback]</div>

Lets also add that it's not just extremist "schools of Islam" that breed terrorism. Extremist schools in any doctrine have bred terrorism over the years.

The IRA, one of the leading, and best known terrorist groups prior to 9/11, was composed predominately of extreme left wing Christians.

Similarly, the ETA in Spain is an extremely militant terrorist organization whose membership is also predominately Christian. I was actually at the airport in Madrid a few days after they set of a bomb in the attached parking garage last winter.

I could go on with different terrorist organizations whose membership isn't Islamic. The difference is you don't hear about these other groups here in the US, especially not since 9/11. Their terrorist goals are localized, and don't attack the US directly. Since they aren't Islamic, the news doesn't care about them. How many people here heard about the Bombing in Madrid when it happened, versus how many heard about the subway bombing in London? The difference? One was committed by Islamics, the other by white Christians.


But other than that, i completely agree with you. Terrorist organizations are, for the most part, created through religious extremism. Their recruitment efforts target the easiest people to influence, which generally are the poor because they can relate to the hatred they preach, and the children of the rich who want to rebel against their parents and authority.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jul 2 2007, 10:48 AM) [snapback]471473[/snapback]</div>

i suggest you look up the definition of terrorism and read the geneva conventions.

a complete waste of time here. it is comforting knowing you are amongst us and that our enemies you consider your allies - you find excuses for their actions, you hold us to higher standards than those trying to kill us, etc. i see, because they dont have expensive weapons of war, they are allowed to torture and kill US pow's? they are allowed to walk into a pizzaria and self-detonate or drive a car bomb into an airport - you are sick.

when you speak of calculus, you have your equations all mixed up. perhaps you should focus on blame and that perhaps solutions are easier found if your equations are not wrong to begin with - forget it - you wont understand...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(formerVWdriver @ Jul 2 2007, 11:18 AM) [snapback]471493[/snapback]</div>

I am sorry i waste the time and effort with this guy. he is truly anti-America/n. He excuses the ways of our sworn enemies, he hold us to a different higher standard of conduct then they, he sympathizes with the most basic of irrational thoughts they use to justify their subhuman/illegal conduct of terror, etc. he represents our greatest worry - an enemy from withing - a person who empathsized/ aids / abets those trying to (and who already have killed thousands of us at home) kill us. he is who they are playing to amongst us. our enemies know they cannot defeat us from without but only from within - and he is amongst them - knowingly or not.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eagle33199 @ Jul 2 2007, 11:04 AM) [snapback]471485[/snapback]</div>

Please continue the list for me i am very interested in it.

There is a bigger difference though - and i think u know it too. Terrorism does not need to be localized, does it - unless it wants to isolate itself in its own cause? Perhaps islamoterrorism is more virulent, more directed at a global target, more religious in nature?

When the US stopped funding the vietnam war and withdrew in self-imposed defeat the vietcong stayed home - why? If we withdraw from Iraq, will our enemies follow us?

sidebar: what do you make of Hezbollah being found in iraq??

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(formerVWdriver @ 2007 July 2 8:18 AM) [snapback]471493[/snapback]</div>

It's not the religion, it's the extremism. The average Christian is not so different from the average Muslim. Or Sikh, or...

I think poverty at least contributes to terrorism. If people had their basic needs met, and weren't so desperate, they'd be far less likely to be whipped into a murderous frenzy.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 2 2007, 10:33 AM) [snapback]471495[/snapback]</div>

Go look up the list yourself, jerk. I haven't excused anything from our "sworn enemies". I hold everyone to the same level of conduct. I don't sympathize with any irrational thoughts, especially yours. I have never done anything to aid terrorists.

You want to know what our biggest threat is? Idiots like you who hoot and holler for unprovoked attacks on other nations that haven't taken any actions against us. It's idiots like you who got us into Iraq, despite the fact that the terrorists weren't there and there were no WMD's. It's idiots like you who lost us so much of our political goodwill and influence across the globe. It's idiots like you that will turn our nation into the next Germany by calling for the death and destruction of all Muslims because some of them are terrorists.

There's a lot more i would say to your face here about your needless and cruel labeling of me, but it would get me banned from the boards. Go use your imagination.

1. islamoterrorism isn't anything more than it is. Like other terrorist organizations, these ones have stated goals and measures, some of which involve taking down what they perceive as the greatest threat to their way of life (and with people like you around, maybe they're right).
2. The situation was completely different. The vietcong were fighting for a government. They weren't a pre-established terrorist organization. They were concerned with their own country - the only reason they were fighting us was because we went and stuck our noses in the middle of it.
3. Everyone's in Iraq now, we opened the floodgates and made a perfect recruitment grounds for the terrorists.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eagle33199 @ Jul 2 2007, 11:49 AM) [snapback]471517[/snapback]</div>

I apologize, it was not directed at you.