Featured Is Toyota Prius hybrid simply passe now that plug-in cars are here?

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Tideland Prius, Jul 19, 2016.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Generations:
    • First - brings a significant advance with some rough edges.
    • Second - trims the worst of the first but breaks stuff
    • Third - gets it right and sets the bar
    So we see 'snap-shots' and live with what is available.

    Bob Wilson
     
  2. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Yes - i get it .... the whole incremental philosopy - perhaps the reason why incremental is frustrating - is because the plugin Mitsu SUV is so staggeringly popular worldwide. That project (a sort-of 'hail Mary' pass - as they say in football) shows the huge benefit of pushing boundaries far beyond incremental ... you end up owning the market - ah la genII prius. On the other hand - imo, 'incremental' is the very reason the whole passé issue gets raised by the OP.
    .
     
  3. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    That's normal business. That's not exciting, but that's the way it is. Getting the masses to accept change requires a passé approach.

    Look no further than the cell-phone & computer markets. Notice how some people simply aren't interested in upgrading or buying the best tech?

    It's annoying when you see people intentionally sell themselves short. That's what they do though.
     
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  4. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The potential customers that said they wanted paddles on the steering wheel for shifting gears or controlling regen, that's who.

    These paddles have been available on consumer cars for years now. The end result of using them to control regen amount while coasting is no different than using them for gear selection to control the amount of engine braking. So they aren't some new and confusing interface that will scare away buyers.

    Then just because they are there doesn't mean the driver has to use them. But people are willing to pay extra on trim upgrade and options to get paddle shifters. The regen ones are an extra cost on the smart ED. Making a feature that is normally an option a standard one is generally seen as a positive. Taking away stuff, like the fifth seat, is seen as a negative.
     
  5. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Only if you spin it that way.

    Stepping back to see the big picture, it was actually an exchange.. something old for something new.
     
  6. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    What if Toyota actually did more than anyone has yet to notice? There hasn't been a close inspection of the 8.8 kWh battery-pack. Perhaps the seemingly clumsy size & shape for Prius Prime is actually an effort to speed up "Prime" rollouts.

    Think about it.

    With battery-pack production refined for rapid volume increase along with accompanying cost reduction, would it be a surprise to find out that same equipment also works with RAV4 hybrid?

    Think about it.

    Toyota would have collected extremely valuable real-world operational data in the meantime. That would greatly reduce risk as well as make it easier to market. That's an approach to reach the masses.

    Think about it.
     
  7. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    my head hurts.:unsure:
     
  8. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    It looks pretty bad in comparison with a 2014 Honda Accord Hybrid:

    Compare Side-by-Side

    The A3 has a range of 16 vs 13 miles and a nicely bigger trunk space but the Honda has similar performance and much better EV and mpg efficiency and much faster EV charging.

    The Honda was only around for 2014 but similar specs with a much bigger plugin battery pack will be available late next year on the their Clarity 40+ mile PHEV.
     
  9. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    If I had been the only one complaining about the missing fifth seat, you could call it spin, but I am not the only one to voice it.

    A car buyer walking into a Toyota show room is going to see the Prius Prime as a Prius without a fifth seat and having a higher cargo floor. They don't have to give up anything to get the V6 in the Camry. Yet it appears that they do to get a plug in Prius, while also having to think about where they can plug it in.

    Losing cargo space and a seat were seen as negatives for other PHEVs. That magically isn't going to change for the Prius Prime, when the the first PHEV to release a second generation model reduces those negatives while improving EV performance with a higher capacity battery.
     
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  10. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    prime shoppers won't be prius shoppers, they'll never know.
     
  11. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    So which is different:
    [​IMG]
    • 2899 lbs - 117 MPGe - BMW i3-Rex
    • 3799 lbs - 115 MPGe - Honda Accord Plug-In
    • 3165 lbs - 95 MPGe - Prius Plug-In
    • 3616 lbs - 83 MPGe - Audi A3 e-tron
    I have no idea how physics works around the Honda Accord Plug-in but it must be something special.

    Only the BMW i3-REX has an electric range greater than 25 miles. Yet we get these curious numbers for the others:
    [​IMG]

    Which one is different:
    [​IMG]
    We really need the amps to understand the charge time. The reason is AC charging is a function of the built-in, charging circuit. The BMW i3-REX can take 32 amps.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #51 bwilson4web, Jul 23, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2016
  12. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Except that the window sticker and emblems on the car say Prius Prime, and there will be a Prius on the lot for people to see the loss of cargo space.

    They won't need that to see the missing middle seat. Every other Toyota with four doors can carry five people, including the Yaris.
     
  13. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    they won't be shopping for a prius. when the professional sales person introduces them to prime, they'll fall in love.
     
  14. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Yes, they will be told about the strengths. Focus will be on their worth.

    Those wanting more passenger room would be attracted to Camry instead... hence Fusion Energi being able to compete with Volt.

    Again, Toyota wants to grow the market... not cannibalize its own sales.
     
  15. UsedToLoveCars

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    we've always known the electric car is the holy grail.

    now that it is becoming truly viable, there is much hand wringing.
     
  16. alanclarkeau

    alanclarkeau Senior Member

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    Depends on where you are and where you drive. 95% of my time, I could manage with an EV with 100km range - but the other 5%, I'll be doing much longer distances - and pushing the car would become a drag realllly quickly.

    However - with our fuel prices 50% dearer than USA, and our electricity prices at least 3x the USA prices (on some figures someone posted a few months ago on PriusChat), the cost of running an EV would be for marginal savings over an efficient hybrid. That could vary if my SOLAR were to provide enough electricity to also run the car, but I'd need to put extra capacity to enable that to happen.

    And that's where a Hybrid comes into it's own. At my current average of 3.6l/100km (65 USA MPG), a hybrid would not only cost less than an EV, but also have a wonderful range.
     
  17. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    This is something I'm finally realizing. To really understand local markets, we need both utility rate and gasoline rates. For example, I calculated gasoline would have to be $1.20/gallon to reach Prius price parity with our BMW i3-REx on a cost per mile basis. For me, this is a new approach to dealing with the operational costs.

    Bob Wilson
     
  18. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Then if you throw fully amortized PV solar into the mix - it really skewes operational costs. Suddenly that home located in an area charging 3X way too expensive electricity has no impact on ones' costs. PV solar & plugins .... a marriage made in heaven.
    ;)
    .
     
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  19. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Capitalization remains a tough nut. Everything cost money and a lot of folks confuse return on investment versus cost avoidance. Then toss in random risks ... <SIGH>

    I really need to take a break and visit a craps table for a couple of hours.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  20. strongbad

    strongbad Member

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    PHEVs still have high hurdles to overcome vs HEVs in market acceptance:

    1. In some US markets it's actually cheaper to fuel up with gas than plug-in. In most other US markets gas prices are so low relative to electric that paying off the stiff price premium for the extra battery capacity takes too many years to justify the PHEV over an HEV.

    2. Space and performance are compromised in the PHEV vs the HEV because of the size and weight of the extra batteries.

    3. People don't want to hassle with cords.

    4. Apartment dwellers and others with no garage, or no electricity to a detached garage, won't be buying PHEVs. These folks make up a large part of the automotive resale segment, however. Depreciation of PHEVs vs HEVs will be brutal therefore, making it even more unlikely that the PHEV will ever pay for itself vs an HEV.
     
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