Ishmael ~ Daniel Quinn on cd (an interpretation of our cultural mythology)

F8L · May 14, 2007

This is a fictional book but it has been regarded as a masterpiece and is often used in college and high schools as part of the curriculum.

I've quoted many parts of this book not to be proposed as truth but, instead, as an idea or an interpretation. Since we humans have the ability to create our dreams there is no reason we cannot attempt to create our future. the basis for the book is how we are living in contrast to the laws of nature and cannot continue to do so in the long term.

So I've put a few audio tracks from this book on my website in case anyone was interested in listening. It is very interesting to think about the ideas presented. This by far not the complete book. Just a few passages in 6min segments. Files are 15mb so expect a min or two for download.

Evolutionary/Creation mythology

For the other parts (track 8-11) go here

Laws and Civilizational flight (Part1 track 11, part 2 track1)

Living in the hands of the gods and ending creation? (part 1, part 2, part 3, part 4)

Or just go to the main directory and check em out in order. This is way to confusing. lol

Ishmael Directory

From wikipedia:

The narrator has a vague notion that he is living in some sort of captivity and being lied to in some way but he can not explain his feelings.

Ishmael uses the example of Nazi Germany as he attempts to show his student that the people of his culture are in much of the same situation. Either held captive with the mythology of being superior, or " an animal swept up in the stampede" of the captivity of those around them.

Before proceeding Ishmael lays some ground definitions for his student so they can be on the same page as they continue to discuss. He defines:

"Takers" as people often referred to as "civilized." Particularly, the culture born in an Agricultural Revolution that began about 10,000 years ago in the Near East; the culture of Ishmael's pupil
"Leavers" as people of all other cultures; sometimes referred to as "primitive."
A "story" as an interrelation between the gods, man, and the Earth, with a beginning, middle, and end.
To "enact" is to strive to make a story come true.
A "culture" as a people who are enacting a story
Ishmael proceeds to tease from his pupil the premises of the story being enacted by the Takers: that they are the pinnacle of evolution (or creation), that the world was made for man, and that man is here to conquer and rule the world. This rule is meant to bring about a paradise, as man increases his mastery of the world, however, he's always screwed it up because he is flawed. Man doesn't know how to live and never will because that knowledge is unobtainable. So, however hard he labors to save the world, he is just going to go on screwing it up.

Ishmael points out to his student that when the Takers decided there is something fundamentally wrong with humans, they took as evidence only their own culture's history- "They were looking at a half of one-percent of the evidence taken from a single culture-- Not a reasonable sample on which to base such a sweeping conclusion."

Ishmael says:

"There's nothing fundamentally wrong with people. Given a story to enact that puts them in accord with the world, they will live in accord with the world. But given a story to enact that puts them at odds with the world, as yours does, they will live at odds with the world. Given a story to enact, in which they are the lords of the world, they will act as the lords of the world. And, given a story to enact in which the world is a foe to be conquered they will conquer it like a foe, and one day, inevitably, their foe will lie bleeding to death at their feet, as the world is now."

Ishmael goes on to help his student discover that, contrary to what the Takers think, there are immutable laws that life is subject to and it is possible to discern them by studying the biological community. Together, Ishmael and his student identify a set of survival strategies which appear to be evolutionarily stable for all species (later dubbed the Law of Limited Competition): In short, "you may compete to the full extent of your capabilities, but you may not hunt down competitors or destroy their food or deny them access to food. In other words, you may compete but you may not wage war." All species inevitably follow this law, or as a consequence go extinct. The Takers believe themselves to be exempt from this Law and flout it at every point.

Ishmael goes on to help his pupil discover just how the Takers rendered themselves above the laws governing all of life. As an example, he brings up the story of The Fall of Man and tells a tale which explains why the fruit was forbidden to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden: Eating the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil provides the gods with the knowledge they need to rule the world- the knowledge of who shall live and who shall die. The fruit nourishes only gods, however, the gods saw that if Adam ("man") were to eat from this tree, he might think that he gained the gods' wisdom and in his arrogance, destroy the world and himself. "And so they said to him, you may eat of every tree in the garden, save the Tree of the Knowldge of Good and Evil, for on the day you eat of that tree, you will certainly die."

Ishmael makes the point that this story of the Fall of Man, which the Takers have adopted as their own, was in fact developed by Leavers to explain the origin of the Takers. If it were of Taker origin, the story would be of liberating ascent, and instead of being forbidden to Adam, the fruit of the Tree would have been thrust upon him.

Ishmael and his student go on to discuss how, for the ancient Semitic herders among whom the tale originated, the story of Cain killing Abel symbolizes the Leaver being killed off and their lands taken so that it could be put under cultivation. These ancient herders realized that the Takers were acting as if they were gods themselves, with all the wisdom of what is good and evil and how to rule the world. And as a result the gods banished these people from the Garden and they were brought from a life of bounty in the hands of the gods to one of being the accursed tillers of the soil.

To begin discerning the Leavers' story, Ishmael proposes to his student a hypothesis: the Takers' Agricultural Revolution was a revolution against the Leavers' story.

The Leavers take what they need from the world and leave the rest alone. Living in this manner ("in the hands of the gods"), Leavers thrive in times of abundance and dwindle in times of scarcity. The Takers however, practicing their unique form of agriculture (dubbed by Quinn, Totalitarian Agriculture) produce enormous food surpluses, which allows them to thwart the gods when they decide it's the Takers' time to go hungry. "When you have more food than you need, then the gods have no power over you." Thus, Ishmael points out that the Takers revolution was not just a technological change, but also serves a mythological function.[/b]
Click to expand...

F8L · May 15, 2007

I thought at least 1 person would be interested. Ahh well

patrickindallas · May 16, 2007

Hey F8L,

Thanks for trying to get the word out about this book.

I have bought and gifted ~50 copies in the last 8 years or so because
I feel as if this novel should be required reading for the entire human
population.

"A life-altering experience" is how most the donees of the book describe it.

It is THAT important, and any self-respecting Priuschat member should
have it in their library (unless they have given it away).

Well, that and the Tao Te Ching.

Prius Owners: Read it! There will be a test, and we cannot afford to fail.

Plus: It features a 'talking' gorilla!!!!

F8L · May 16, 2007

Thanks Patrick.

It is indeed that kind of book but it is difficult to get people to read books so I got a copy of the cd version in hopes some would simply listen to at least a couple parts and get hooked. lol

I have the tao te ching as interpreted by Stephen Mitchell on cd too.

patrickindallas · May 16, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ May 15 2007, 11:49 PM) [snapback]443076[/snapback]</div>

I have the tao te ching as interpreted by Stephen Mitchell on cd too.
[/b]
Click to expand...

Yah,

I keep one copy of that version on hand for gifting also. I get that
translation because it comes in miniature. I can give it to people,
and then they can carry it around comfortably.

I keep the Victor Mair version for personal reading.

On topic: I just realized that the UTD library does NOT stock Ishmael.

I cannot believe it!

I'll be filling out a purchase request for that one as soon as I can
find my ID.

F8L · May 16, 2007

LOL

I've gifted 8 copies of Ishmael so far. Most people I know don't read much so I'm going to try with the CDs. I know it's wrong but it is within the spirit of Ishmael is it not?

If you need an audio copy let me know. At first I didn't like it because I just finished a high dollar production (The Omnivore's Dilemma ~ Michael Pollan) and this one sounded weak but now I really enjoy it and I've listened to the whole book ohh around 15 times now since there are only 3 cds compared to the 13cd for the Michael Pollan book or the 8 cds I'm listening to from Jared Diamonds "Collapse". Haha

Did you know that the founder and CEO of Interface Inc. (an extremely large flooring and carpet company) changed his company around and started incorporating sustainability into their program after reading "Ishmael", "Silent Spring" and, "The Ecology of Commerce"? The companies profits rose, their stocks went up, and everyone is living happily every after now that most of their carpet is recyclable and they are starting to use biopolymers instead of petrochemicals. Amazing what a good book can do for ya!

patrickindallas · May 16, 2007

It is possible that everyone here has already read it.

A boy can dream.

EricGo · May 17, 2007

F8L, thanks for the links.

I'll try out a couple of audio clips, but suspect I already agree with the author's ideas, based on your posts over the last couple of years.

F8L · May 17, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EricGo @ May 17 2007, 07:45 AM) [snapback]444140[/snapback]</div>

F8L, thanks for the links.

I'll try out a couple of audio clips, but suspect I already agree with the author's ideas, based on your posts over the last couple of years.
[/b]
Click to expand...

Thank you.

Even though you'll likely agree it is kind of neat to hear the authors perspectives. I'm sorry they take so long to load.

Ishmael ~ Daniel Quinn on cd (an interpretation of our cultural mythology)

F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

patrickindallas Shire rat

F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

patrickindallas Shire rat

F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

patrickindallas Shire rat

EricGo New Member

F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

About PriusChat

Quick Navigation

Like us on Facebook

Buy us a beer!

Useful Searches

Ishmael ~ Daniel Quinn on cd (an interpretation of our cultural mythology)

F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

patrickindallas Shire rat

F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

patrickindallas Shire rat

F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

patrickindallas Shire rat

EricGo New Member

F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands