Israel Bombs 4 Story Residential Building

Let me play devil's advocate here:

Change Lebanon to Iraq.

1. I think the Americans are going to create a helluva lot more terrorists.

2. With crap like this, they're quickly losing sympathy/face across the globe.

3. It's 2006, and the Americans have, arguably, one of the best military and intelligence infrastructures on the planet, and they made a "mistake" like this?(WMD and 911&Iraq. Where's Osama?)

Counterpoint:

Ok, let's assume for a moment Al Queda was using this particular country as cover. Even so, is there no better way? Is XXX acceptable "collateral" damage?

Personally, I don't think they give a hoot, or at least, more accurately, they care as much about civilians as Al Queda does. I do not know, if America keeps this sort of thing up, they risk a real Arab coalition rising against them.

Interesting spin...no?

As for the original post above I agree with ambassador. Israel spent several days warning what they intended to do. If Hezbollah did not allow civilians to leave, using them to hide behind as protection, then the deaths are at Hezbollah's door (and they're cowards). If the civilians could leave and chose not to, it was their choice. If either thought that Israel would not bomb just because there were civilians there, then they were pretty stupid and must have failed history class. (That's what comes of not studying history outside your own country. Does anyone else think Israel was bluffing?) Did anyone honestly think Israel would not follow through with the announced bombing just because civilians didn't leave?

Personally, I think Israel has behaved with restraint over the years of constant attacks. If I was in charge, I'd not only retaliate...but I'd keep all land involved in the retaliation. Every time Israel is attacked...there is a counter attack with a "mine now" land acquisition. Then let's see how many countries continue to attack when they keep losing and Israel keeps growing. Let Israel take over the entire Middle East. At least under Israeli rule women would have more rights.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jul 30 2006, 11:19 PM) [snapback]294867[/snapback]</div>

1. Israel starting "creating" terrorists when the UN granted them statehood. What was Arafarts reason for killing innocent Israeli's in the 1960's? And you think they need a reason?
2. Israel has NEVER had world support or sympathy - never will - so it makes no difference. Name 10 countries that ever voted on behalf of Israel in the UN - EVER...
3. No real mistake - Hezbollah will always fire behind the skirts of women and their kids.

Let me ask you - what do you think will bring peace to that region - given Israel withdrew from Sounthern Lebanon with no strings attached - just UN resolution 1559 - something that was not implemented. And if you can tell me what you think Israel should do with the West Bank after they withdrew from Gaza again with no strings attached only to have Hamas fire 1,000 rockets into Israel from their.

Your turn...

And food for thought - you should cite independant journalists in the future - you might try finding some other "facts" about this incident - you can actually go to the video of Hezbollah launcing rockets from behind that building if you care to seek out the truth - that is if you believe video. And then try explaining why the Hezbollans waited for the news crews to start taking out the bodies from that building and then explain why there was such a significant time differential between the building being struck and it collapsing.

Remeber that family on the beach that was supposedly killed by an errant Israeli artillery shell - you now know what really happened don't you?

But please stick to my original questions as to what you would want done to give peace a chance there.

Thanks for your cooperation in advance.

 

Hezbollah, knew exactlly what they were doing...the coward's they are. Using the building to launch rockets, and hiding behind the skirts of women and children. Thay knew Isreal would bomb the area, and Isreal fell into thier trap knowing full well what the world reaction would be. What you take into your hands, you take into your heart. Pray for peace for all mankind.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jul 31 2006, 10:40 AM) [snapback]294961[/snapback]</div>

Yeah right... Think a little further. Right now, that scenario is considered a true nightmare by Isreal. Assimilating any more Arabs into Isreal would just aggravate their tremendous long-term demographic problems. Or what would you like to do with all the people living on those grounds?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hwalker911 @ Jul 31 2006, 01:40 PM) [snapback]294996[/snapback]</div>

This point is more than likely true, but it's irrelevant in the current circumstances. All that counts is that the world was shocked by what happened, and Israel is losing approval. A few more of these incidences, and all the muslim countries who currently silently agree with Isreal will have no choice but to chose side against Israel.
I'm sure Hezbollah doesn't really care about the people who died, but it served them very well. More than likely, the attack was provoked indeed, but then it was silly of Israel to fall into that trap. It didn't do them anything good.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 31 2006, 07:25 AM) [snapback]294994[/snapback]</div>

Where is the Mystery Squid - anticipating with great interest your reply above - after you get done with your reply on the Mel "I am not an anti-Semite" Gibson thread. Can't wait to see this develop today?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jul 31 2006, 04:40 AM) [snapback]294961[/snapback]</div>

Israel doesn't always announce their attacks (USS Liberty).

And think of it from this angle... a lot of people who tried to leave last week, because they had gotten those warnings, were bombed on the road as they were fleeing. Given the choice between staying home and being bombed into oblivion, or sitting in your station wagon and being bombed into oblivion, which would you prefer?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jul 31 2006, 10:30 AM) [snapback]295067[/snapback]</div>

VERY easy to read between the lines here.

Part II. Anyone that did not believe the warnings deserve what they get - especially after 9/11 - NO?
So when Israel dropped the warning and GAVE AWAY their element of surprise - I would have listened - and given the Israeli's past history and the current goings on - anyone who did not listent - they had their fair warning.

I look forward to when you do get some time - but if you don't - you have already spoken for yourself - kind of like how Mel Gibson spoke for himself - assuming here - but probably dead on accurate.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 31 2006, 10:49 AM) [snapback]295079[/snapback]</div>

Did their warning say we'll bomb your house if you say, and your cars if you try to escape? That'd be fairly factual.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 31 2006, 04:49 PM) [snapback]295079[/snapback]</div>

That's a very simplistic reasoning. As if leaving your house and leaving everything behind is that easy. Where should they go to? Never forget that this country is not the U.S. The people who stayed perhaps didn't even have cars. They may be on the edge of poverty, trying to rebuild a life from the debris of the previous wars, and then a bunch pamphlets is dropped on your head saying that you have 24 hours to abandon everything. Perhaps you have a family with 7 children, and only one job. How will you survive? How will you feed your children as a refugee? Staying is risky, but leaving everything behind is equally risky. Many refugees all over the world have learned the hard way that nobody really cares about them.

It also reminds me a bit of New Orleans and Katrina. You have an event that was known days in advance, and a super-organised, rich country. And yet the whole story was a disaster, because many people decided not to go. If the U.S. can't do it, how would you think it would happen in Lebanon?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 31 2006, 04:25 AM) [snapback]294994[/snapback]</div>

This is exactly the sort of clarity need here: innocent men, women and children (why are men always excluded from the ranks of the innocents, by the way) unlucky enough to be caught in the middle can be slaughtered and dismembered without qualm or quiver of conscience.

It is abundantly clear that human carnage, in and of itself, is not a problem. The only problems are who does it, to whom, for what reason. Like a slot machine: the right combination of the three and WINNER!!! and wade in to spill blood up to your neck with a smile.

Dr. Berman, I'm as positive as I am the sky has clouds in it that were you confronted with two stretcher cases in the ER, one an Israeli 5 year old with legs severed by a Hezbollah missile, and the second a Lebanese 5 year old with his face torn to shreds by an Israeli cluster bomb, you'd give each equal care, you'd feel exactly the same disgust for what had happened to them, you'd talk to each with exactly the same degree of sympathy, you'd have precisely the same hope that each would recover and survive.

But your every argument in these posts would have us believe you'd leave the Lebanese 5 year old in the corridor to die, that his fate at the hands of the "right" people (Israelis) killing the "right" victims (Lebanese) for the "right" reason (retribution, revenge, so-called "defense") was right and proper.

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Jul 31 2006, 11:32 AM) [snapback]295103[/snapback]</div>

you could not be further from the truth. It is not retribution, it is self-defense. That is where you go astray. Israel does not bomb civilians for the heck of it like Hezbollah does. Israel does not hide behind women and children and non-combatent men when they fight. They do not strap dynamite belts around their children and send them to blow up civilian buses or pizzarias, they do not name streets or village squares for people who have commited homocide bombing, they do not invade another country and kidnap their soldiers, -- they do have a judicial system that punishes those that do wrong - even if they are Israeli. Get your facts straight - watch the videos of where Hezbollah launches their missiles from - and you make the call - unless of course Israel should not defend itself. But how many times can they give land back for free for just the promise of peace - where was the UN for the past 6 years - where is Resolution 1559????? Where is your buddy Kofi?? Why did he not pull out the blue helmets - why did he let Hezbolloah set up shop right next to them??? Wake up. If Israel wanted to bomb indiscriminatly they could.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 31 2006, 05:50 PM) [snapback]295107[/snapback]</div>

They still occupy a lot of territory that belongs to other countries. However, the real problem there are the settlers of course.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 31 2006, 05:50 PM) [snapback]295107[/snapback]</div>

We all know that the UN is a joke. It's too divided by the conflicting interests of the different member nations. You can't blame UN or Kofi Annan, they are doing what they can. The blue helmets in Lebanon have an explicit passive mission, without the use of armed forces. What do you think they should do?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 31 2006, 05:50 PM) [snapback]295107[/snapback]</div>

I truely believe that they do what they can to avoid collateral damage. It's in their own interest, after all. However, on the battleground, decisions have to be made quick, based on incomplete information. And Hezbollah may indeed be actively misleading Isreali forces, provoking this kind of disasters. For them, that's part of the game.
But Israel should have foreseen this, and realise the damage that they are doing on their own case. Before they went to war, they should have realised what kind of mess Hezbollah would try to drag them into. And they should have asked themselves seriously whether or not the kidnapping of two soldiers was worth the risk of a dirty war with a lot of stinking collateral damage. It might not be in their long-term interests

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jul 31 2006, 06:04 PM) [snapback]295119[/snapback]</div>

Ah, that's an interesting point. History is written by the winner. The "truth" is often irrelevant

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vtie @ Jul 31 2006, 12:17 PM) [snapback]295128[/snapback]</div>

Name the territory they "occupy" much less the "a lot of it" since they gave back gaza, and southern lebanon.

UN - if they pass a resolution then act on it - if they dont - stand back and get out of the way if it goes the way it did with 1559

And what would you have done if you were PM of Israel after what happened from the Gaza and then from Hezbollah? HOw many rockets would you let rain on your innocent citizens after giving back those territories? 1 or 2. HOw about over 1,000 ??? what would you propose for them to do - sit back and take it??

YOu are right about history being written by the winner - Israel can NO longer risk anything less than total victory- hopefully the US can take out Iran and that would be the beginning of the end.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jul 31 2006, 10:26 AM) [snapback]295061[/snapback]</div>

The USS Liberty attack was a disaster - the difference was that Israel was genuinely sorry about it - how about Hezbollah killing 242 US Marines on PURPOSE in 1982 when they attack their barracks in Beirut - or their attack on them in the Kobar Towers, etc, etc, etc, etc. You seem to focus only on one group here - why? And that group is the pro-LIFE group, the liberal group where you can actually find other religions practicing their beliefs in freedom.

And if you think Israel targets innocent civilians on purpose - so be it - that is your choice. You obviously have a slant on this that I do not share. I hope you have your facts straight. I wish if you are right that Israel calls back all its ground forces and then just do what you say they are doing anyway - bomb them to oblivion and stop risking Israeli soldiers lives.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 31 2006, 01:18 PM) [snapback]295172[/snapback]</div>

Which one group do I focus on? I'm not sure that I do.

And I'm sure Israel geniunely felt sorry that they felt they had to attack the USS Liberty. Mind you, to this day a lot of elements in the CIA, State Department feel this way. And the sailors, ya know the ones who had the giant american flag flying on the Liberty, the ones who waved to the pilots as they made their nearly half dozen identification runs, definitely feel it was premeditated.

Neither side is blameless here. But one side seems to be talking out of it's nice person. That side would be Israel. You know the "we want the lebanese army to control hezbollah (which, trust me, the lebanese gov't would love)", and the "oh crap, sorry we just bombed the lebanese army".

Which is it Israel?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vtie @ Jul 31 2006, 11:20 AM) [snapback]295098[/snapback]</div>

You are real good - getting Katrina in there. Hope the DNC has an opening for you - except most Democrats are pro-Israel - that would be a tough one for you.

And your first paragraph is laughable. I am sure you could have created a few more pro-Hezbollah scenarios...

And what scenarios from the Israeli point of view did you create?

Enough said.