1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

JBL Premium Audio System uncovered

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Audio and Electronics' started by SynergyGuy, Mar 14, 2005.

  1. SynergyGuy

    SynergyGuy New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    55
    0
    0
    This is a long read, but believe me, worth for those with the JBL Premium Audio System and interested in upgrading.

    Tired of the poor quality the JBL Premium Audio system delivers I decided to make some changes in order to improve it to a decent level. In doing so, I captured some data that I though would be worth sharing with you.
    I have attached four zipped AVI files that show the Voltage-Frequency response of each independent output of the JBL Amplifier component. I created a CD with multiple samples that I used as input source including a logarithmic 0-20KHz frequency-sweep, which was used to produce the attached results.
    The Amplifier has independent drivers for the following components:
    - Front Doors Woofers (digital crossover involved)
    - Read Doors Woofers and Tweeters
    - Front Doors Tweeters (digital crossover involved)
    - Front Central Speaker (digital crossover involved)
    One interesting point to note is the low frequency response (right side spectrum in the first two attachments). There is a peak response at about 70Hz, which turns very unpleasant when applied to the front and rear doors woofers, after reaching certain power level different components in the doors start to rattle. In my opinion, most pleasant bass sounds are in the range of 25Hz to 50Hz, and yes, there is a big difference between 50Hz and 70Hz. Unfortunately, as you can see in the attachments the JBL amplifier does not respond very well on that range, however the signal that comes from the head unit and feeds the amplifier shows a pretty nice response even at 10Hz!! The only reason that is forcing me to keep the JBL amp component in the car is because it contains the logic that understands all commands sent through AVC-LAN protocol from the touch screen and steering wheel to adjust volume, equalizer, fader and balance. Why is the logic in the amp and not in the head unit? I really wonder.

    So, the first stage on improving the system was to replace the speakers. I selected the following brands:
    - Front and Rear Woofers: Blaupunkt TS660
    - Front and Rear Tweeters: Bose (same used in the Jewel Cube speakers)
    - Central Speaker: UNPLUGGED!!
    - ADDED: SubWoofer: Bose, Acoustimass Series.
    - ADDED: Four 3.5Khz Low-Pass & High-Pass passive crossovers.

    I also added a four channel Amplifier.
    - Amplifier: Pioneer.

    After all speakers were replaced I was astound to find that the front tweeters were delivering an incredibly awful sound compared to the ones in the rear doors, even though they were same brand, same model. To my surprise, when I rewired the front tweeters to be fed from the same signal that feeds the rear ones the sound quality was of superb quality. This simple exercise showed a definite problem in the JBL Amp component where the digital filtering (digital crossover maybe) causes major deterioration of the signal that is delivered to the front tweeters, I presume that since the signal delivered to the rear doors goes with full bandwidth, no digital filtering is involved and therefore the quality is preserved. Note that this problem does not appear to be related to output bandwidth range as shown in the attachments, but to bogus signal processing algorithms.

    I actually removed the JBL amp component and opened it in an effort to find a point where I could take the audio signal before it gets fed to the power IC’s. Unfortunately, I didn’t have much luck in doing so, this is a highly integrated circuit, with multi-layer PCB and two large scale integrated chips, most likely dedicated to decoding AVC-LAN and Signal Processing (equalizer and digital crossover). As a consequence I had to use the JBL Amp speaker outputs to feed the second amplifier, not the ideal solution of course, but after all it worked pretty well.

    Conclusion (to put it in brief):
    - The poor sound quality associated to this system comes mainly from the power amplifier itself, not the head unit (which is somehow good news).
    - For better quality the JBL tweeters need to be replaced. Ideally, woofers as well.
    - There’s a major quality flaw in the amplifiers section that powers the front tweeters. Use the rear doors output instead.
    - The central speaker becomes useless if the tweeters are replaced with better ones.

    --Jorge
     
  2. rydot

    rydot New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2004
    52
    0
    0
    Location:
    Culver City, CA
    Yay! I mean, this sucks, but still, it means that my ears aren't deceiving me every time I play music in my JBL-equipped Prius.

    Thank you for performing such a comprehensive investigation!!!
     
  3. Rumply

    Rumply New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    32
    0
    0
    Location:
    Raleigh/Durham NC
    Questions from a prospective prius owner:

    Is the premium stereo referred to here the one that is included in package 5 and 6 (the 6 Cd changer) or are they all the same basic system?

    Is this enough of an issue to warrant looking for a lower priced package and spending the extra money on an after-market audio system?
     
  4. dgstan

    dgstan Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    159
    3
    0
    Location:
    OC
    Can I amend this statement to say that the center speaker is useless, period? At least, at high volumes it just muddies everything up.

    After I installed my sub, I unplugged my center speaker and am much happier with the sound. The separation is much improved.

    Thanks for all the info. My next mission is to upgrade the tweets.


    DGStan
     
  5. SynergyGuy

    SynergyGuy New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    55
    0
    0
    Yes, that is the one. Other packages have the amplifier built in with the head unit.

    Well, unfortunately there is no way to pick selectively what you want, so in my case, the other features included in the package such us the NAV and the SmartKey were good enough to still consider taking the upgraded package and extra cost. But from the begining I knew not to expect too much from JBL, there are far better brands out there.
    What still amazes me is the high level of technology put into this amplifier and yet the results it delivers leave a lot to be desired.
     
  6. naterprius

    naterprius Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2004
    1,843
    11
    0
    Location:
    USA
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    So, did you happen to check to see if the signal feeding the Amp is volume controlled by the head-end? Or if it is a fixed level signal?

    Nate
     
  7. SynergyGuy

    SynergyGuy New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    55
    0
    0
    The signal fed to the amp from the head unit has a fixed level, the amplitude is changed internally in the amp via AVC-LAN commands. This is somehow good because it will allow you to feed an auxiliary audio input source (MP3 player, etc) directly into the amp and still be able to use the controls in the steering wheel and touch screen.
     
  8. DanMan32

    DanMan32 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    3,799
    26
    0
    Location:
    Tampa Bay, FL
    Have you determined if the MFD beeps are generated by the header or the amp? Since you determined that the volume is controlled by the amp, then the amp would have to generate the beeps so that they could be injected after the volume attenuator.

    I have determined that the beeps do go to all speakers in the JBL system.

    So, is the center speaker output the same frequency range as the other fullrange speaker outputs?
     
  9. SynergyGuy

    SynergyGuy New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    55
    0
    0
    I have not confirmed if the beeps are generated in the amp, I'll check that real quick later today. But my first assumption is that they do get generated since you can always hear them with the same amplitude regardless the volume setting. I'll let you all know a definite answer later today.

    With regards to the center speaker, as you can see in the attachment its frequency range is limited starting from about 1Khz to about 14Khz.
     
  10. DanMan32

    DanMan32 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    3,799
    26
    0
    Location:
    Tampa Bay, FL
    Hmm, then I was wrong about using the center speaker output for subs.
     
  11. wilco

    wilco New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2005
    402
    1
    0
    "With regards to the center speaker, as you can see in the attachment its frequency range is limited starting from about 1Khz to about 14Khz."

    Wow, that is such a huge mistake on JBL/Toyota's part. It's kinda like putting a fifth wheel that doesn't turn on the front of the car.
     
  12. SynergyGuy

    SynergyGuy New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    55
    0
    0
    I thought about that too at the beginning, but dropped the idea as soon as I saw the results.
     
  13. DanMan32

    DanMan32 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    3,799
    26
    0
    Location:
    Tampa Bay, FL
    I then looked at your spectrum outputs. It seems that the center channel does have lows, just not as high as the fullrange outputs, which should be OK, since you are going to separately amplify the sub anyway.

    Quite frankly, the attachments are confusing.
     
  14. SynergyGuy

    SynergyGuy New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    55
    0
    0
    I have to rerun the test for the central speaker so that you can see the full spectrum. When I first ran that test (the attachment that you see) I forgot to disable the auto-trigger feature in the software, so it started capturing at about 1KHz. I clearly remember that below 100Hz, which is the range that you'd use for a subwoofer, there wasn't any output.
     
  15. naterprius

    naterprius Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2004
    1,843
    11
    0
    Location:
    USA
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    So, I had a brainstorm, and realized that the Land Cruiser which sports an incredibly similar system to the Prius (Bluetooth and all) has an external Amp that is fully analog. I also realized that the head unit has the exact same 20 pin connector. I also realized that just about every Toyota built in the last few years uses the same 20 pin connector. So, that being said, I got to thinking: Would it be possible to plug the Land Cruiser Amp into the Prius Head unit?

    I checked the connector, and sure enough, they are the same; many of the pins the L/C Amp uses for Analog signaling are empty on the Prius head unit, and vice versa.

    I realized all I need is an L/C Amp and harness, THEN I realized all we really need to do is pull some of the offending pins from the 20-pin plug on the back of the head unit and test the blank spots to see if they are compatible.

    So, here's the wiring diagram from the L/C and the Prius. Note that the signal ground is distinctly absent from the Prius circuit. I suspect that removing the Digital Amp from the AVC-LAN and testing pin 8 against pin 16 will reveal that the signal is now variable by the volume control! I will test when I get a chance unless someone else wants to check it out first...

    Another quick check would be to see if pin 3 on the radio is hot for a remote AMP turn on...

    Nate

    By the way, you have to invert one of the photos since the diagram is reversed for the Prius (Amp is at the top, radio at the bottom).
     
  16. SynergyGuy

    SynergyGuy New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    55
    0
    0
    I tested this. The input level is constant regardless you take the signal between (+) and (-) terminals or one of them and ground.
     
  17. SynergyGuy

    SynergyGuy New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    55
    0
    0
    I just ran a test and confirmed the beeps are actually generated from within the amplifier. The signal that feeds the amplifier does not get affected by the beeps. This makes sense so that the beeps don't get louder as you increase the volume.
    This makes very complicated to figure out a way to remove them altogother.
     
  18. naterprius

    naterprius Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2004
    1,843
    11
    0
    Location:
    USA
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Synergy guy, did you test between one of the signals and the currently empty pin 16? Also, did you do it with the Amp disconnected from the AVC-LAN?

    Nate
     
  19. brosnan

    brosnan Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2004
    159
    11
    0
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    Jorge,
    Did you snap any photos of the inside of the JBL amp?
     
  20. SynergyGuy

    SynergyGuy New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    55
    0
    0
    When you say with the amp disconnected from AVC-LAN, do you mean by simply unplugging the TX+ and TX- terminals? My first thought would be that this will not work.