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Jealousy or Fear?

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by john1701a, May 15, 2004.

  1. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Commenting on this post I found in an unfriendly hybrid forum today was just too darn good to pass up:

    Soft Hybrids are almost here

    It appears that GM and Ford are about to release their full sized "Soft Hybrids" this summer and fall. Could these be a better answer to the hybrid approach? Have Toyota and Honda been pushing in the wrong direction? With a range of about 6 miles on battery alone, it is said that the Soft Hybrids may save more gas than the smaller hybrids due to our typical short trips, etc. I tend to agree with GM and Ford.


    Then it was followed up with this exclamation:

    I think this approach will catch the Japanese auto manufacturers by the short hairs.


    It is wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to begin.

    What do you think?
     
    #1 john1701a, May 15, 2004
  2. richard schumacher

    richard schumacher shortbus driver

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    I think we need a little more context to know what they mean. Are "soft hybrids" things with big starter motors, like the Silverado? If so then I think they will be stop-gap niche contributors at best; a half-assed interim application of the available technology, like putting both reciprocating steam engines and steam turbines in the Titanic.
     
    #2 richard schumacher, May 15, 2004
  3. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    GM is in fact releasing a "soft hybrid". Beyond that, there is simply no truth. His post is a complete fabrication of facts.

    Whether he made them up, recited them from other sources, or guessed based on vague comment is the real question.

    In other words, I'm quite curious how such a blatantly incorrect rumor could have started.

    And of course, I'd like to know if there are equally bizarre rumors about Prius.
     
    #3 john1701a, May 15, 2004
  4. bookrats

    bookrats New Member

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    "Soft hybrid" sounds like the term "mild hybrid", which I've seen in overviews of hybrid cars. (See the excellent MIT Technology Review article in PriusChat's File section.)

    A "mild hybrids" is a car where the electric engine augments the ICE -- i.e., the electric motor doesn't ever runs independently, on its own. The Honda Civic Hybrid is the most prominent example of this.

    The same overviews usually describe the Prius as a "full hybrid" -- either the ICE or the electric motor, or both, can run at any particular time.

    According to the MIT article, the GM trucks are mild hybrids, while the Ford Escape is a full hybrid.
    ----

    As to your original question, I think it's valid to examine whether particular mild or full hybrids are more gas efficient. It's an interesting argument about short trips; but of course, what type of short trips: trips for 3 miles at ~30 MPH, or 3 miles at ~55 MPH?

    Also, the terms "full" and "mild" hybrid are general terms -- it depends a lot on individual implementation. The Honda Insight is a "mild" hybrid, and gets (generally) equal or better MPG than the Prius. Between the Honda Civic Hybrid (mild) and the Prius (full), the Prius gets better MPG (certainly not worse). I tend to credit a lot of the Insight's MPG to it's size (2-seater) and lower weight. (Not to knock it -- kudos to Honda for getting it to work.)

    So, I think the poster's initial question -- mild vs. full -- is too general. You have to look at the size of the car, the type of trips, etc. But it would be interesting and educational to see how these different hybrids perform under rigorous and consistent testing.
     
    #4 bookrats, May 15, 2004
  5. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    Did you respond to that thread John? It's so blatantly wrong and misinformed you have to wonder where it came from. It seems odd that anyone informed at all about hybrids would type that, yet why would someone ill informed on hybrids be posting on a hybrids forum.

    Would take too much of a post and a couple of links (to GM and Ford's own sites for that matter) to debunk that misinformation...and it could be done politely.

    i.e. "As regards the original post, it seems that the person posting was misinformed on the capabilities and functionality of the mild/soft hybrids. Actually the Pruis, Honda, and upcoming Ford Escape.... Meanwhile the Silverado has no ability to run in electic only and will provide a modest 1-2mpg improvement in mileage in the city only and no improvement on hwy mileage."

    Insert the links in appropriate places, make no accusations and move on.
     
    #5 efusco, May 15, 2004
  6. Tempus

    Tempus Senior Member

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    "With a range of about 6 miles on battery alone"

    What GM or Ford product is he talking about? I haven't heard of any such thing, unless the Escape Hybrid as an EV button or something. But then it would have the same limitations as the Prius EV button.

    He doesn't really seem to have a clue what he's talking about, so I wouldn't give him free rent in my head.
     
    #6 Tempus, May 15, 2004
  7. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    No I didn't reply to that original post.

    Because I have the flagship Prius, they attack pretty much every word I type. There are some that are blatantly rude & dishonest people there. So I quietly observe now, to keep in the loop. (After 1.5 years of fighting with them, I got rather tired of it, especially knowing my time could be better spent elsewhere... like here!)

    The result has been other Prius owners gaining valuable experience under fire. And fortunately, the anti-hybrid folk aren't as hostile to them as there are to me. I trust they will be able to clear up the nonsense that takes place there.
     
    #7 john1701a, May 15, 2004
  8. RobertO

    RobertO New Member

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    I recall Bill Maher responding to Anne Coulter a few months back on Bush Jr's infamous Muslim/Christian "Crusade" gaffe, wherein she said there is no record that the Christians mistreated the Muslims during the Crusades.

    Totally blown away by her pin-headed Nazi-wannabe reshaping of history, Maher replied, "you just make shit up, don't you?".

    Brought the audience to their feet, cheering.

    Some folks just think all other folks are really stupid and will believe anything. Kind of like all those Iraqi Terrorists on board the 767's on 9-11. Not!

    And I guess we're supposed to foget the photos of Rummy shaking hands with Saddam over a chemical deal during Bush I, and Jr. waling hand in hand with Saudi Royalty last month.

    Mostly Saudis and other Arabian subcontinent types.

    So I wonder if the Soft-Hybrid piece was ghost authored by Coulter...Maybe she should consult to the huffy Ford exec spinning new math about the actual percentage ofToyota Hybrid Synergy Drive technology in the new Ford Hybrid SUV.

    Bottom lilne here is that those of us who paid the price and are driving the car are the only folks who really know.

    I've probably described the car and the ownership experience to more than 100 folks in parking lots and at gas stations. A lot at gas stations, lately.

    Remember last week? Even with their misstatements about performance and fuel economy, the Car Guys still gave it an, "Awsome" rating.

    I got a happy-making car. Gonna keep driving it while The Others wail in the wildernesss.

    I know where you can get and fabulous deal on a fully loaded '04 Hummer...


    Bob
     
    #8 RobertO, May 15, 2004
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