Just another car company

The Saturn Vue is made in Mexico? My Tundra was built in Indiana. I'm starting to feel more patriotic every day.

 

I just think it's great that they have the UAW there to protect the workers.

If anything were to happen to the workers, the union would do.... basically nothing.....

which is apparently the current plan.

Springhill should sweep the union out of town and then the employees should offer themselves to GM under conditions 'normal' to the rest of the nation. GM would save enough money to be able to afford to build cars here.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Nov 21 2006, 10:39 AM) [snapback]352599[/snapback]</div>

Sure, the workers could offer to match the Mexican wage of, what is it? $2 a day? Or maybe they've raised it since I lived in Mexico to $3 per day. Oh, yes, in Mexico when they pay the minimum wage of $2 or $3 per day they have to give every worker a taco at noon also.

Not.

Car companies are like any other corporation: All they care about is making money, and they'll laugh all the way to the bank then they fire American workers and leave them to go on the soup lines, while they look for the lowest-wage no-environmental-protection country they can find.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Nov 21 2006, 01:39 PM) [snapback]352599[/snapback]</div>

"normal" being minimum wage, no healthcare, no retirement, unpaid overtime........

If it wasn't for Unions, workers would be abused by their employers. Considering how many grievances my employer has lost because of intentionally violating it's contract with the workers, I shudder to think what working conditions would be like without a Union to protect us.

What part of the constitution denoted a "company" is equivalent to a "person" in rights?

Since when do companies have the "right" to be protected from their really BAD decisions? Since when do companies have a "right" to exhorbitant profits? Since when do companies have a "right" to pay less (taxes) for "more" (protection).

I don't see all these "rights" for the corporations benefiting anyone but the CEOS and high ranking officials of those companies. Yacht sales and luxury car sales don't benefit the working class of this country. Neither to fur or jewelry or perfume sales. That money isn't trickling anywhere but into a bank account where it sits, benefiting the bank stockholders. And they aren't the working class either.

This country is choking off it's strength: the working class.

Why don't you come up with a solution to that, rather than the constant negative attacks?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Nov 22 2006, 12:50 PM) [snapback]353193[/snapback]</div>

Unions had their place in time - but I don't recall seeing Unions enumerated in the constitution either. Nor the "right" to healthcare, vacation days, etc.

For the most part, unions are a inefficient drag on the economy and most companies. Look at Europe - you ask for mega-benefits and dictate inflexible work rules and you get stagnant economies. Most economists would argue for a flexible economy in which resources (land, labor and capital) can be rapidly re-deployed as needed. That is why the GM union shops are closing up and non-union shops (perhaps Toyota) will take over those factories. Not saying there is not an impact to the worker - I've been "displaced" twice myself (and am happily re-deployed in a different industry now).

The statement that the strength of our country is in the "working class" is really just a cheesy class warfare taunt. Our strength is in the amazing ability of our people to generate new ideas, develop new ways of doing things and deploy resources efficiently. Yes - the result can be disruptive, but we are on the whole better off for it.

BTW - just who is the "working class"? Sorry to derail into a bit of a rant, but that is such a BS, loaded phrase - as if to imply there is this "non-working" class of attorneys, doctors, entrepreneurs, engineers, etc. that just sit on their asses all day?

 

Tom, I agree with much of your criticism, but find your phrase

to be the flip-side of the BS coin.

Better, because the top 1% are richer,
or Better, because the median is higher,
or Better, because the average is higher,
or Better, because the bottom 1% is healthier, has a car etc ?

GDP does not begin to tell the story.

 

If you're interested in workers rights and the power of companies you GOTTA see The Corporation (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0379225/) It's an eye-opening documentary about the concept of the corporation throughout recent history up to its current status. Yes, a corporation does have legal rights, just like a person.

 

I'm no fan of Big Corporations, but I'm no fan of unions, either.

Early in my career, I got a job with a university. Being a state university, they were unionized.

"Do I have to join the union?" I asked as I was filling out paperwork, including a union application, after I was hired.

"No, you don't," the Human Resources person told me, "of course, we only hire union workers so you couldn't work here."

Where I come from, this is called extortion.

But since I needed the job, I joined. And I had to pay $50.00 A MONTH on union dues instead of wasting it on luxuries such as food. Of course, since the things unions originally fought for - a decent wage, decent hours, payment for overtime, etc., were now required by law, I thought the union didn't do much of anything. Of course, I was wrong - they sent me out a glossy magazine every quarter saying how wonderful the union was ("without us, you wouldn't have this glossy magazine!").

No, I am no fan of unions.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Nov 22 2006, 04:50 PM) [snapback]353193[/snapback]</div>

I agree with you about this, but you have to have some perspective. The automotive Unions have been slowly bleeding GM and Ford dry for decades. The recent concessions made by the auto unions are the first concessions I can ever recall the unions making. If GM/Ford paid what the Japanese automakers do (in the US at least) and didn't have to worry about legacy health costs, they'd have much more money for R&D. It's sad, but it's true.

Unions are important when they're held in check. I'd love it if there were a programmer's union.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JackDodge @ Nov 21 2006, 11:44 AM) [snapback]352564[/snapback]</div>

Jack you continue to astound me with your continued hounding of GM and Ford.

So GM and Ford are "abandoning plants in Michigan". You make it sound like GM and Ford are making a whimsical decisions to close plants in Michigan, Tennessee, Minnesota, New Jersey, Delaware, Ohio, California, Oklahoma, Missouri, etc. Those are states with GM and Ford plants that I know have closed in the last three years. Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside does it? Could you give me a detailed explanation of Toyota's job creation? I would love to see a Toyota ad explaining how they eliminate between 3-4 American Jobs for every job they create.

Ford or Chrysler will cease to exist as we know it within 1-2 years and you just ooze with sarcastic enthusiasm for the tremendous loss of not only middle class jobs, and the wages and benefits, but a tremendous amount of wealth and potential wealth fo rresidents of the United States including yourself. Someday we will all look back on the the last thirty years and wonder how we were so duped. I watched a Pearl Harbor documentary last week and wondered. I thought to myself if only the Japanese had known they could achieve most of their wartime goals through propaganda and political maneuvering would there have been an attack on Pearl Harbor at all?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Dec 13 2006, 11:44 PM) [snapback]362047[/snapback]</div>

Thank you.

 

A union's primary mission is to ensure workers do minimum work for maximum pay. That philosophy consistently produces an expensive piece of crap.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Nov 26 2006, 02:17 PM) [snapback]354222[/snapback]</div>

In a declining corporation there is plenty of blame to share. While "the unions were bleeding GM and Ford dry" who was keeping executive compensation and bloat in check? Who complained when their view changed from long term growth to short term profit? Who complained when accountants became more influential than engineers in the design phase?

It's so easy to bash the unions. Are you ready to return to the working conditions of the past to compete with the overseas labor?

I am employed by a large international corporation. Are you willing to write code for what we pay an Indian programmer?